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Post by mach12 on Jul 18, 2019 8:53:57 GMT -5
When I renewed my HVAC certifications they gave me some updates and links on industry trends. One of the things they said was important to be aware of was the trend away from greenhouse gas producing products, including natural gas, and said that we could plan for its impact on the industry. This morning I saw an article about Berkeley, California passing a ban on natural gas in new construction buildings so it looks like it's starting. I thought it was interesting that one of the earliest areas (the S.F. Bay area) on the West Coast to have natural gas was the first to ban it. We've been kicking around selling out where we're at and moving and if we do that then our BZ, Pepper, goes with us and since WA State is becoming an extension of California I suspect we'll see this here before long too. I always thought we'd have a place built but will need to be careful to be sure we'll be able to use gas. I've got Dylan's song "the times they are a-changin'" going through my head right now... www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Berkeley-becomes-first-U-S-city-to-ban-natural-14102242.php?psid=d9luS
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Post by cinnabar on Jul 18, 2019 21:35:37 GMT -5
Ok, this makes no sense. The coal fired power plant in Stillwater MN is converting to Natural Gas. We heat our homes with NG,(had the heat on June22 this year) so I guess CA will use an alternative source of energy .... or go without? I don't expect the upper Midwest to follow suite in the near future.
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Post by Chuckie on Jul 18, 2019 21:58:01 GMT -5
Ok, this makes no sense. The coal fired power plant in Stillwater MN is converting to Natural Gas. We heat our homes with NG,(had the heat on June22 this year) so I guess CA will use an alternative source of energy .... or go without? I don't expect the upper Midwest to follow suite in the near future. I certainly HOPE NOT cinn!!!! DITTO on our heat---plus the dryer, hot water heater AND the Chambers!! Not to mention a NG radiant heater in the basement we use when the power goes out. I was gonna encourage Mach12 & his wife to move HERE to be safe from such "government intrusion", as his wife's from this area. Such BS!!! " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/superangry.png"> CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by nana on Jul 19, 2019 8:54:18 GMT -5
As fossil fuels go, isn't natural gas supposed to be the cleanest? And isn't it mostly methane? I know some of the bigger dairy farms around here have manure-to-energy systems that capture the methane for use in running the farm. Just think of the vast quantities of manure from hog farms and feedlots polluting the water and air and creating the dead zone in the Gulf, and oil refineries that just flare the methane off instead of using it. I say, don't ban natural gas, but DO ban damaging and polluting ways of extracting it like fracking, and put the best minds to work figuring out ways to capture and use all the methane that is already out there anyway. I WISH I had natural gas out here, but we don't even have cable or reliable cell service, they're never gonna run a gas line to West Hebron!
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Post by mach12 on Jul 19, 2019 10:25:39 GMT -5
They're going big on electricity and that certainly has its pitfalls. They have yet to find a way to generate electricity without problems. Even the windmills are killing birds by the thousands and are changing weather patterns in many areas. The last I knew the majority of California's electricity came from WA State and I'm sure plenty of it still does but they've been taking out dams that were poorly designed or were causing a reduction in fish populations and what's left can only produce a set amount of power. It'll be interesting to see how they manage it from here on.
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Post by nana on Jul 20, 2019 10:37:33 GMT -5
I need to have faith in giving really smart people the money and tools they need to really bear down on the problem. We, as taxpayers, subsidize so many things that actually work against our best interests. The trouble as I see it is private enterprise will only do it if they can make money off it, and who can blame them? But when the end goal is profit, then it stops mattering what the long term, unintended (or simply un-cared-about) consequences may be. Businesses are very good at reaping the benefits and passing off the costs, and the bigger the business the better they are at it and the easier it gets, because they can pay off whatever watchdog is supposed to be minding the store. We need public, civic investment in those very smart people, and then we need a government that will take their discoveries and do what's best for the country and environment, even if it means some industries will lose their massive profits. Aye, and there's the rub, as Shakespeare said.
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Post by mach12 on Jul 21, 2019 0:48:53 GMT -5
I was gonna encourage Mach12 & his wife to move HERE to be safe from such "government intrusion", as his wife's from this area. We were looking seriously at where we were going to relocate to when my mother-in-law developed dementia so everything's on hold at the moment. The problem is deciding between Kansas or Texas. We even had a Kansas City real estate agent looking for property options for us so we could make a good comparison. If we end up in Texas it'll probably be Fredericksburg since my relatives there present a pretty good argument for the area. The way my luck usually goes the economy will take another dump about the time we're ready to make our move and we'll end up staying put.
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Post by pooka on Jul 21, 2019 2:50:27 GMT -5
Electric is the energy source of the future, there's no doubt. That said, they'll never be a substitute for cooking with gas. Just like the old saying, "Now you're cooking with gas". Some sources of gases are more problematic than others. Drilling & fracking have turned out to be a mixed bag if good & bad. Methane from more passive sources like landfills & livestock waste seem like a way to make the most out of an already available source. I've heard natural gas is the cleanest burning of our fossil fuels. But I don't know the full scale of producing it & delivering it.
The big drawback to gas in new construction is it has to have it's own piping. It's just cheaper to run everything off of one electric line than running gas & electric lines.
Electricity is a kind of universal energy. There's so many ways to make it. Then you just plug that power into the grid. It's the grid that make it so ubiquitous, at least since the days of rural electrification. Remember gas was originally used for lighting competing with kerosene. Cooking & heating with gas came later. I'm betting there are still lots of rural folk who still depend of delivered LP gas for cooking & heating. As long as you've got fuel in the tank, you're good to go. In out of the way places, you can't depend on fragile electric lines. In bad weather, you can be out for days.
Mankind has had a dysfunctional history with energy. We're good at finding the resources, but then we waste them like there's no tomorrow, especially if there's profit to be had in the deal.
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Post by nana on Jul 21, 2019 17:42:24 GMT -5
Even solar power has its downside. The power is clean, but the manufacture of the panels, and the materials needed to make batteries to store the power come with their own set of problems. Perhaps the answer is just to "need" less, but try convincing the average person of that. And If I'm honest, I have to include myself in that group, as I sit typing this on my iPad, in my air conditioned house(albeit geothermally) cooking sausage and pepper eggrolls in my Chambers. And not even with the gas turned off.
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