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Post by thenotherone on Feb 5, 2008 19:36:42 GMT -5
I was watching a kitchen remodel on HGTV and the designer was talking about how she wanted the new kitchen to reflect the character of the house (built in 1919, I believe). So they proceed to gut the kitchen...which, for the most part, needed gutting but I actually shouted at the TV when they took a sledge hammer to the vintage subway tile. Then they "rebuilt" it with the ubiquitous cherry cabinets, ceramic tile floor, and stainless steel appliances, along with a quartz countertop. They also replaced the old fashioned wall vent above the stove with a modern range hood. All of that would reflect the character of the house, how? The only thing of "character" that remained was the woodwork around the door that they (mercifully) decided to salvage. In my opinion, although it may be popular now, that look is completely out of place in an older home...and will be even more out so in a few years when it inevitably starts to appear "dated." (And throughout the show the designer kept going on about how "classic" and "timeless" it was. Riiiight.)
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Post by damnoldhippie on Feb 5, 2008 21:16:44 GMT -5
Yeah...as "classic" and "timeless" as orange and avocado green flocked wallpaper!
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Post by oldsalt on Feb 5, 2008 21:44:42 GMT -5
GASP!!! You mean a velvet Elvis could go out of style some day?
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Post by haasfan on Feb 5, 2008 22:42:11 GMT -5
ha ha ha, like a velvet elvis could go out of style...as far as those 21st century "vintage kitchens" go...i wish they would go...away, far far away. i've seen too many truly beautiful authentig kitchens replaced with crapola cabinets, hideous lighting, ghastly tiles and more stainless steel than i thought was ever possible. the worst part is the destruction of the meticulous craftsmanship. just tonight i was at a new job and the home owners were so proud of their brand new disgusting vintage kitchen...right out of the susnset kitchen book from the depot. crapola tumbled marble flooring replaced their original birch floors [so hard to keep shiny], absolute black granite counters [so shiny!] and particle board immitation beadboard cabinet doors...what the home ownders can't grasp is that they destroyed and trashed perfectly good and desirable cabinetry which lasted nearly 100 years for factory made particle board which is already showing signs of wear. what's a guy to do?
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Post by thenotherone on Feb 6, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -5
Not that they don't have their place, mind. I have friends who built their home in 2002, and that style of kitchen is perfectly suited to the house....and probably will be in 10 years because it "fits." But yeah, when people start undermining the vintage appeal of an older home...and as you said haasfan, destroy the meticulous craftsmanship! When I was house shopping and would see that same kitchen EVERYWHERE, regardless of the age or style of the house, I would get totally turned off. In fact, I started calling it "the done to death kitchen." For some reason I found them especially offensive in 1950's era ranch houses, probably because they always looked too formal and overwhelming.
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Post by foodisgood on Feb 6, 2008 13:29:49 GMT -5
Amen! Once you can get it cheaply, once it has trickled down to the big box store, its OUT. All these timeless kitchens are going to look dated.
Now the new, new kitchens will have the oil-rubbed bronze appliances. I wonder how that will look with an all copper Chambers Or a copper-topped Chambers (actually, the top being the copper backsplash on the yellow or green Chambers)?
Which brings me to the bad-joke-of-the-day about the Copper-topped Chambers that keeps on going and going. They will still be working long after that new stainless stove has been junked.
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Post by haasfan on Feb 6, 2008 14:23:14 GMT -5
this morning i was at a meeting with seven real ladies...the country club set, all lovely, well done, groomed, suited, bejeweled and pulled just tight enough, well, except for "brenda" whose lips somehow kiss her earlobes but, the kitchen point is this: let's call her sonja and she said "well, here are the photos of my kitchen, finally, it's finished!" as the pics reached peggy, peggy looked and said "ah, sonja, who did you kitchen?" sonja said it was Mr. whoever. "well!" said peggy. "he did my kitchen last year and yours looks EXACTLY like mine!" both ladies were visibly upset-imagine two women, same outfit at the same affair- both said "he said my kitchen was unique".......peggy swore they were the same down to the hardware...it really boils my blood when i see the garbage out there that passes as good design....and the profiteers who will say anything to get a job. looks like one of the ladies is going to be re-doing her kitchen asap...this time something that, as peggy said "defines my personality". lol.....i can't wait to see the botox, insecure and "no really, i AM 42" kitchen!"
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Post by thenotherone on Feb 6, 2008 17:42:17 GMT -5
That "keeping up with the Joneses..." I'm sorry, "OUTDOING the Jonses" mentality is what really boils *my* blood. That's how this this crappy kitchen obsession really got out of hand. Must have the high-end, top-of-the line Viking, even though I don't cook. Must have the top-of-the-line Sub Zero refrigerator even though I could buy one for1/5 the price that will keep the food just as cold. And if I can't afford it, I'll just buy a cheap knockoff that "simulates" it.
Honestly, when I finish my kitchen remodel...complete with a fresh coat of white paint on the existing cabinetry, a gen-U-ine linoleum floor, vintage-style fixtures, and of course, my Chambers 61C, I'm sure no one will be impressed but my husband and me. And you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way. ;D
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Post by StugIV on Feb 6, 2008 18:09:49 GMT -5
People walk into my new place and they are like "whoa man --- time for a kitchen remodel". I am like Dude WTF?! Then they see the 61C frame sitting in the middle in my kitchen and think I have gone completely mad.
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Post by redrange on Feb 6, 2008 20:34:09 GMT -5
We get clients who are amazed when you suggest re-using their beautiful old kitchen cabinetry and embracing the era of their house.
My theory is the whole kitchen remodel is so serious a right of passage that people are unwilling to have fun with it. Too many are living in a kitchen that's been built for status, at a cost of $50,000 or more and, ironically, will be out of date in five years. Now that's unfortunate.
And when folks talk about a vintage-look kitchen that is fairly rigid too. They either mean a 50's look or 50's appliances with 20's or turn of the century cabinets. If that's the period of their house, terrific. But if they live in a 60's home why not look at 60's mod kitchens? People were doing some out there stuff in that time period. It was fun, and it can be set up so the effect mostly comes from paint, trim and lighting that can be easily changed out. Why not go completely creative and radically combine periods? We do it in the living room, but not the kitchen. Of course, you probably don't want to go there if you're putting your house on the market anytime soon. But hey, kitchens are full of good food, family, friends and in my way of thinking, fun.
Stug had mentioned getting his Chambers done in lime green. He's exhibiting signs of being a design rebel and should just run with it. Reckon we could all get him to a fabulous out of the box home.
All that said, most of our clients want conservative, neutral and oh so very good, current, taste.
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Post by oldsalt on Feb 6, 2008 20:57:39 GMT -5
Red, How sad, but true. Its all about re-sale value, especially here in our lovely (and WAY overpriced) National Capitol Region. Folks just don't know how to make things their own any more, and designers are probably getting sued for daring to truly personalize things for their clients and, therefore, not "optimizing" resale value. I guess it is just a statement on our transient society. (Not that I can claim to be stuck anywhere. I don't know how to stay put for three years anymore, after a Navy career. In my own defense, we do have a pretty good record of having personalized homes. Though the one in Maine not selling proves my point about resale...)
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Post by foodisgood on Feb 7, 2008 9:21:11 GMT -5
Red, are you a kitchen designer? or?
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Post by redrange on Feb 7, 2008 19:39:24 GMT -5
We do renovations and supporting design work. Prefer green renovation/preservation of older homes, but not everyone is into that.
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Post by haasfan on Feb 8, 2008 7:41:35 GMT -5
red, we should compare notes, i do the same work, high end interiors, primarily green, historic preservation and restoration, exclusively residential. i always love the look on someone's face when i tell them their cabinetry is of superior quality to anything they can but today. they are usually too shocked to say anything coherent for a few minutes. always exciting.
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Post by thenotherone on Feb 8, 2008 10:17:26 GMT -5
Cool! We want to go green (or at least green-ish) for our kitchen remodel, which is one reason we're considering linoleum....specifically, Marmoleum click tiles. Do either of you kitchen renovators have any experience with that? What about bamboo countertops?
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Post by berlyn on Feb 8, 2008 10:37:49 GMT -5
When we gutted our kitchen we kept the vintage 50's cabinets that the previous owner built. We were "hammered" by several people (mostly my brother) to get new cabinets. Why?? They are built solid and still work, for me that is. We did strip the layers of paint and took the hardware in and had them sandblasted. I like my cabinets, they are original and 'tell a story' of sorts. Besides the original bead board used on the end is just so decorative vintage cool workmanship. Can not find that now days in big box stores stock!!
As I've learned, new is not always 'improved'. I like vintage, it rocks and it's staying, in my home at least. ;D
Red range, I hope you post some pics of vintage kitchens you've worked on. We love eye candy!!
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Post by haasfan on Feb 8, 2008 12:28:40 GMT -5
i've been using marmoleum for more than 20 years. people get tired of it before it needs replacement. in a typical residential kitchen, you can expect a good 70 years of service. heat welds really make the job tight and wonderful. i've never used the tiles from forbo...only tile experience is cork which is even easier maintenance than marmoleum. bamboo counters, haven't done that yet. to have a truly green marmoleum installation, you must use an appropriate green adhesive....
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Post by thenotherone on Feb 8, 2008 13:05:04 GMT -5
I was originally leaning toward cork, but we have a 50 lb dog with nails like talons....no matter how diligent we are about keeping them trimmed. She has already left several gouges in the existing vinyl floor. I ordered a sample cork tile and stuck my thumbnail in, ever so gently, and it did leave a permanent dent. So I don't think it will hold up to the wear and tear.
The Marmoleum click that I'm looking into is actually a floating floor with a cork backing. A bit more espensive, but if we install it ourselves we can save money on labor.
P.S. Berlyn: I would love to see pics of YOUR kitchen. I'm curious...what did you use to remove the layers of paint from the cabinets, and did you do the interiors as well as the exteriors? (I shudder at the mere thought of removing paint from the insides.)
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Post by cinnabar on Feb 8, 2008 14:06:34 GMT -5
As far a "greeness" goes linoleum is first, then cork. So says my husband who sells floor covering. I'm sure you've heard this from other sales people as well. He sells Qu-cork, will mark but recovers, check it on the web. sorry don't have the address. cinn
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Post by haasfan on Feb 8, 2008 15:32:29 GMT -5
CORK, in my experience, is far more forgiving than linoleum. I prefer the old fashioned cork tiles over the floating floor systems, same for linoleum, not a fan of floating floors. Cork flooring has even a longer life expectancy than linoleum. Opinions differ, of course, but I think a true cork is greener than linoleum..it is ONLY cork whereas linoleum is a manufactured product.
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Post by cinnabar on Feb 8, 2008 15:54:00 GMT -5
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Post by FatFutures on Feb 8, 2008 15:57:15 GMT -5
I love the idea of cork in my kitchen. But, how would it stand up to 2 150lb dogs with big ol claws? Once we remodel, the kitchen will no longer be a major traffic way. However, when a Dane gets the zoomies, they will run were ever there is room. I can just SEE gouges in my floor!
Speaking of gouges... Robert, we're going solid wood in the rest of the house. What type of finish would you recommend to withstand such torture?
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Post by thenotherone on Feb 8, 2008 18:07:05 GMT -5
From my own experience with a gouge-o-matic dog, the hardness of the wood is even more important than the finish. We have...er, had...gorgeous fir floors on the second floor. All but the master bedroom were refinished before we moved in two years ago (three coats of oil-based poly, I believe). Now the entire floor, in both the rooms that were refinished and the one that was not, are equally..and significantly...scratched.
On the other hand, we have maple floors on the first floor...where she actually does most of her running around. They were refinished in the same manner. And there are no (or at least very few) visible scratches.
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Post by haasfan on Feb 9, 2008 8:49:11 GMT -5
wax. use pure old fashioned wax on wood floors. oil based polys scratch and turn white or black. it is impossible to refinish without redoing the ENTIRE floor. Water based polys are not much better but you can [oh brave refinishing gods] refinish spots. Now wax, wax you just rub new wax on and you are done. Three base coats of wax to get you doing and then a re wax every four, five, six months. Don't like to wax and buff? have a service come in and do it. Buy an Electrolux [vintage, naturally] floor buffer, have some applesauce and go to town. Think of a wax finished floor just as you would think of a well seasoned, perhaps you have heard of one of these before, a well seasoned cast iron pan. use it well, use it hard, treat it well, treat it hard and it will treat you well.
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Post by berlyn on Feb 9, 2008 13:33:07 GMT -5
wax. use pure old fashioned wax on wood floors. oil based polys scratch and turn white or black. it is impossible to refinish without redoing the ENTIRE floor. Water based polys are not much better but you can [oh brave refinishing gods] refinish spots. Now wax, wax you just rub new wax on and you are done. Three base coats of wax to get you doing and then a re wax every four, five, six months. Don't like to wax and buff? have a service come in and do it. Buy an Electrolux [vintage, naturally] floor buffer, have some applesauce and go to town. Think of a wax finished floor just as you would think of a well seasoned, perhaps you have heard of one of these before, a well seasoned cast iron pan. use it well, use it hard, treat it well, treat it hard and it will treat you well. That's how we refinished our floors (pine & oak), old fashion wax. Hubby picked up a professional buffer at a school auction. Or you can rent them. I highly recommend Asfan's method!! ;D Now the down side of waxed floors and BIG dogs; I've left my german shepherds(great home security system!!) in and well... was longer than I thought and accidents happened and you will have a "water stain". Always seems to be the wet and runny type and not a "dry patty drop" in my case!! Upside is it's easier to remedy than a poly-finished floor with scratches. If I do get a deep scratch, it's hard to see but easy to apply wax and buff out. With a poly-finished floor you don't have that option. Other than to resand and start all over.
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Post by redrange on Feb 10, 2008 22:59:46 GMT -5
Would suggest you talk with the folks at Forbo in Pennsylvania, who distribute Marmoleum, re your specific wear requirements. My past experience was that they were quite happy to talk to homeowners. Linoleum is not great with large amounts of water or dog nails, but it is a good way to add a wide range of colors and a traditional vintage look.
Have installed an Ikea butcherblock countertop, but not a bamboo countertop. You are probably already looking at what kind of adhesives they use in the fabrication of the bamboo countertops as indoor air quality and sustainability are both important. There is butcherblock with nasty adhesives; Ikea's inexpensive, but not bad looking wood countertop material that adheres to pretty high German environmental standards (Ikea doesn't produce endgrain butcherblock); and then some very green butcherblock with completely formaldehyde free adhesives. Ask for actual numbers before you buy so that you can compare. A lot of the manufacturers are starting to be more aware and are looking to make their products greener so the numbers seem to change quite a bit.
Sometimes the results will surprise you. Had to use a metallic paint and the Home Depot supplied brand was significantly lower than a green manufacturer. You never know.
On paint strippers, there are some newer soy-based ones out there.
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Post by haasfan on Feb 11, 2008 6:52:26 GMT -5
I'm glad we are talking about wax, again. My favorite reminder: BEFORE you paint or do any messy work in your house, Wax your floors! The fresh layer of wax acts as a barrier against any spills, drips and other mishaps and makes cleaning up far easier. Fresh wax is like a preventative against bigger problems, a layer of protection, as they say.
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Post by foodisgood on Feb 11, 2008 11:41:02 GMT -5
Are you going to listen to haasfan or are you going to listen to the voice of experience-wood floors, big dog and little children in my old house. I went with WAX. Oh wait, that's what ha said!
The floor was dark oak and I had both a liquid and paste wax that I used with a buffer. They both had color in them so the scratches disappeared. No crying over spilled milk because the liquid was good for touch-ups also.
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Post by pipercollins on Feb 11, 2008 11:58:26 GMT -5
I'm painting a couple bedrooms...maybe I should consider waxing the carpet...
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Post by oldsalt on Feb 11, 2008 14:53:03 GMT -5
You all wax so eloquently on this subject, I will have to bee attentive and tell Wifey about the buzz.
;D
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