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Post by sandhill53 on Aug 10, 2016 12:34:20 GMT -5
Does anyone know the thickness of the chrome on the original Chambers Ranges? Does anyone know where can find this information?
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Post by mach12 on Aug 10, 2016 15:22:52 GMT -5
I've been trying to find the same info and haven't found anywhere that has it. The info might be out there somewhere but I sure haven't found it.
What I've found (and you may well already be familiar with) is that there are basically two levels of plating, decorative (or nickel chrome plating) and industrial (usually called hard chrome plating). The shine from decorative plating is mainly due to the plating beneath the chrome, often what they call triple-dipped, which is where the steel surface is polished, then dipped in a copper bath, followed by a Nickel bath, and finally in a chrome bath. The chrome is just there to protect the nickel. With hard chrome it's just a thicker layer of chrome and can still be very shiny. Today's processes produce a harder surface and I'm told that a decorative process today produces a chrome surface that's superior to both decorative and hard chrome of the late forties and early fifties so a modern decorative chrome surface is superior to the original Chambers chrome.
I'm wondering whether an industrial chrome surface might give even better longevity though, and still look great since it can be nice and shiny, especially with a bit of polishing. Take a look at the chrome piston rod of a hydraulic cylinder and you'll see what I mean. Some hard chrome is purposely more porous and not as shiny so it's largely dependent on the intended application and plating process used to meet the requirement.
I've spoken in the past week with a couple of shops that do industrial chrome plating and one of them recommended that I take some of the parts up to PACCAR near Seattle and have them tell me what the original chrome thickness and process was so I spoke with the POC he provided. He said he could check it and told me to call when I have some stuff ready to bring in. I'm pulling a BZ top this week if I can get to it and am going to try to borrow a C top from a friend near me who is working on a couple of C's right now. The BZ is a 1948 and therefore one of the last cast tops vs. the heavy stamped steel (what Chambers called Battleship Steel in their ads) that was used on the C's. That, combined with the DuraChrome process breakthroughs in the late 1940's (1949 was the big one), may make a difference between the original chrome of the two series.
I have a BZ top in for chroming right now and have had them do a couple of C series tops for me in the past. He said that the original chrome was a decorative thickness and that the tops were originally triple-dipped (copper, then nickel, then chrome) but that was based more on his observations when he stripped them than any actual measurements. This is the first cast top I've had chromed though so don't know for sure about the original on this BZ top. From what I've found it looks like they started using the DuraChrome process in 1949 so this BZ top is probably pre-DuraChrome, though I sure don't know how you'd tell. It's on my list to ask guy at the PACCAR lab.
I guess the bottom line is that I don't know and haven't been able to find anything in spite of the digging that I've done, but hope to, and there might be a difference due to advancements in the chroming processes.
I know it doesn't answer your question but it's all I have at this point. I'll update it as I get more info.
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Post by sandhill53 on Aug 11, 2016 12:38:19 GMT -5
Thank you for your post. I found it to be very informative. I am in the process of having a C refurbished. Just to complicated for me to put back together. The top does need to be re chromed, this is due in part because the chrome has worn thru to nickle underneath. I do not want this to happen again so I am asking questions about thickness of plating. I know that with plating that it can become brittle if to much plating is put on, or the ends have a thicker plating with the middle being thinner and with crazing in the center. I have also read that if someone desires a thicker plating that they put on more than required/asked for than buff off the top to achieve the thickness. I was under the assumption that the plating from the 50's would be a thicker stronger plate, thank you for the correction. Please do keep me posted. I would think that the information would have to be out there somewhere. Does no one have the old Chambers records? Hard to believe!
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Post by mach12 on Aug 11, 2016 13:32:02 GMT -5
I started really digging into this only a couple of weeks ago when I took a bunch of stuff to the shop I had been using and their prices had gone through the roof. Prior to that I only knew some real basic stuff like if I was having a hydraulic cylinder rebuilt it needed industrial chrome, that some parts of the equipment I worked on in the Navy (about a million years ago) was chromed with a porous chrome that reduced corrosion but held lubricants and things like that. I did oversee the installation of an industrial plating facility in the Egyptian Army's main workshop just outside of Cairo, Egypt but was mainly just verifying the work of our contractor and fixing problems along those lines, plus the chroming portion was only a small part of the operation, dwarfed by the anodizing, bluing, Parkerizing operations and so on. That really piqued my interest though and when I decided to look for another chrome plating shop I decided to educate myself on it a bit better so I knew what I needed to look for. I've been trying to find more info on the original chrome processes that Chambers used but have yet to find anything. My guess is that all that info became the property of the Flato Brothers when they bought the company and Whirlpool when they bought it. As I understand it, Whirlpool now owns the Chambers company. If they still have the info I doubt they'd be interested in releasing it, though haven't contacted them and probably should at least try.
I've made a bunch of calls and sent a bunch of emails trying to find out what processes are used and what are recommended and those who might know, like stove rebuilders, aren't talking. I've been given some great pointers and references and am running it to ground but it's taking a lot more time than I expected and I'm running in 10 different directions remodeling my kitchen, building a BZ to put in it, harvesting and canning and on and on. We'll get it though. Just squeezing it in as I'm able.
In the meantime, a couple of the best links I've found are www.plating.com/Book.pdf and www.finishing.com/faqs/chrome.html and may help answer some of your questions. I sure found them useful.
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Post by Chuckie on Dec 5, 2016 21:57:50 GMT -5
De Tray Plating Works, 10405 E. 11Th Street, Independence, MO, 64052 is where Jeff from IPE sent us. Bub Stoufer is who we dealt with, phone number is (816) 252-8411, website detrayplating.com/ Anyhow, we got him down to $350 for the top & wagon wheel pilot cover, then Susie remembered top 'spice' shelf REALLY BAD (and it was). He charged her $400 when we went to collect it today for all 3 pieces, and said "if you bring any MORE down here, JUST the top (chromed) will be $500!" He said he could do it in NICKEL for $300, and stated "I think that would look better anyway" (did NOT tell us that beforehand, but--again--she HAD asked for the chrome price). Here's some pix re: nickel: detrayplating.com/nickle_plating.html Those trailer balls pictured look DAMN good IMHO!!! And methinks $300 is a fair price--readers? Just a "heads up" for those who expressed interest earlier when I mentioned this elsewhere. CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by mach12 on Dec 6, 2016 1:03:53 GMT -5
I'd ask him about the nickel he's using and see what he says about wear. The guy at the stove restoration place near me told me to only do plain nickel on trim pieces, like old wood stoves where the work was done on a steel surface. He said that nickel on a cooktop would wear down in a hurry and has to have the chrome to protect it. They have so many alloys out there that De Tray may very well have a nickel alloy that'll do the job and I'd sure love to know about that. All I know is what I've been able to dig up here and there and there's a lot of stuff out there and it'd be great to find some options!
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Post by Chuckie on Dec 6, 2016 9:58:33 GMT -5
I'd ask him about the nickel he's using and see what he says about wear. The guy at the stove restoration place near me told me to only do plain nickel on trim pieces, like old wood stoves where the work was done on a steel surface. He said that nickel on a cooktop would wear down in a hurry and has to have the chrome to protect it. They have so many alloys out there that De Tray may very well have a nickel alloy that'll do the job and I'd sure love to know about that. All I know is what I've been able to dig up here and there and there's a lot of stuff out there and it'd be great to find some options! mach12, I have NO IDEA about chrome, nickel, etc. I was a bit leery about using this guy AT ALL, but Jeff sings his praises, s-o-o-o-o-o... I guess time will tell on how it holds up. Like you, I knew the old woodstoves were done in nickel, as that was what my Da used to say. He always said nickel holds up better than chrome under heat!! HOWEVER, you are again correct, in that the stove TOP was just plain cast iron, and anything nickel was just decorative attachments on the stoves I've seen. LOL, so I dunno WHICH is correct!! Again, I've only dealt w/ PORCELAIN in the past, and I CAN attest to Jeff's fine work. Just a QUICK google gives a few ideas re: chrome/nickel: www.finishing.com/60/82.shtmlAnd in this post, he alludes to the fact that the older stoves (like our Imperial and Pooka's Model 74) that had a 'finished' grill, it was most likely NICKEL, as he says " Nickel is quite acid resistant, so I doubt that much nickel can be leached out." and goes on to say " Nickel is quite inert and is used, I believe, on virtually all oven racks and baking racks and a lot of B-B-Q grills, Luka. I've never heard of any reports of toxicity; if any reader has, please correct me." Neither of his reports says anything (that I found anyhow) as to " WHICH is best" under extreme heat. Again, this was just a cursory look at ONE individual's opinion(s) via google, so I'm sure further research will reveal better results... (a/k/a wait until Pooka gets in! ) CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by mach12 on Dec 6, 2016 12:47:27 GMT -5
I had the oven racks for my A series stove done in plain nickel and he dipped them in chrome and then in a bath to take the chrome back off. He said doing that surface hardens the nickel but you won't get the discoloration that you will with chrome. Since my A series is in the shop patiently waiting for me to get off my backside and reassemble it I haven't run them in the oven to see how they do so am still at the "we'll see" stage. I did a bunch of studying on metal toxicity and the studies I found all seemed to agree that our bodies eliminate normal nickel exposure, so in most people it's not an issue. My wife gets skin rashes when she comes into contact with nickel for an extended period, like if she wears jewelry that is nickel plated. She was a lab technician in a hospital years ago and mentioned that to one of the industrial medicine doctors at the hospital and he told here she was probably zinc deficient and should get tested, so she did and he was correct. She started taking a zinc supplement and it nearly eliminated it. According to the doctor, the body needs zinc and since nickel is so close to zinc the body thinks nickel is zinc and uses it. If zinc is available then it'll use that and just eliminate the nickel. If I remember right the dangerous nickel exposures were industrial where people were exposed to high levels over a period of time and caused cancer of the sinus, throat, and lungs. The bottom line as I understood it was that for most people nickel exposure isn't a concern at all, the exception being people with kidney disease.
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