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Post by mach12 on Nov 19, 2015 2:36:50 GMT -5
I wish the picture was a bit more clear but that's a hard place to get a decent shot and you're lucky to have gotten as good of one as you did. When I enlarge the picture I can't tell for sure but it almost looks like a universal mixer. If that's the case then the cap snugs all the way against the pin and the propane comes through the hole in the pin.
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Post by nana on Nov 19, 2015 8:28:43 GMT -5
If anything, I'd say I'm getting too much gas! The flames are practically shooting out of the well entirely.
Yes, it was quite a challenge to get the picture. I stuck a flashlight and my phone down there and was flying blind. The third try was the best one. The flames were too high from the very start and our farzkugeling around only made it worse.
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Post by sporko on Nov 19, 2015 11:22:37 GMT -5
I will throw a wrench in here. I know for propane the manual says to tighten adjustable orifices down tight. But... I've found that if I do that I get inconsistent lighting on the cooktop burners. It might take 3-4 attempts of turning the gas off/on to get the pilot to light the burner.
I've found bumping up the propane "just a tiny bit" really helps this.
I've also found that not all burners are created equal. I have one that JUST DOES NOT PUT OUT AS MUCH as the others. Even if I bump the gas up, it will just take eons for a large pot of water to get to a boil. It's been boiled out via the vaporvac method and I've taken pipe cleaners to all the holes... it still just doesn't put out as much. I've had the air shutter totally open and the gas as high as I can get it to match that air flow... and it still doesn't match the others. I eventually replaced it with another (less pretty) burner from my parts pile.
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Post by mach12 on Nov 19, 2015 11:39:21 GMT -5
Make sure that you have universal mixers. If they are, the hole in the mixer pin should be the same size as your three top burners and the caps should be snugged down against the pin. The oven and broiler require more gas and have larger holes in the pins and there's always the possibility that the mixers got swapped. There could also be a bit of debris under the cap that's preventing the cap from sealing against the pin and allowing gas to enter the burner both through the pin and around it. With universal mixers set for propane ALL gas goes through the hole in the pin.
If the pin hole is larger on the mixer pin for your t-well than for your three top burners I'd look at the ones on the broiler and oven and see it they're the same size and, if so, just swap the complete mixer. Don't over tighten it since it's soft metal and you don't want to score the inside mating surface of the cap or the pin. If the cap is damaged and allowing gas to enter both around the pin and through the hole in the pin you'll need to replace the cap, possibly even the complete mixer if the pin is damaged, though I don't think that's very likely. Since the pin hole is what's a different size on the universals the caps are the same and you could swap the cap with one from a burner to get the well working.
The most common thing I find with noisy burners is an air problem where there's too much air in the gas-air mixture. Propane can be especially noisy. With your burner removed, look over the air shutter end of the burner and make sure that there isn't any debris between the shutter plate and the surface where it sits against the burner. Make sure that there are no holes or cracks that will feed air to the burner that isn't going through the shutter. Just past the air shutter is a venturi and excess air going through the venturi makes things go crazy. Adjust your air shutter to around 25% open, light the burner, then adjust the air shutter for the correct flame. All of this assumes universal mixers on your stove. If it doesn't have universal mixers with the holes in the pins then the procedures are a bit different and we'll have to go to plan B.
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Post by mach12 on Nov 19, 2015 12:02:18 GMT -5
I will throw a wrench in here. I know for propane the manual says to tighten adjustable orifices down tight. But... I've found that if I do that I get inconsistent lighting on the cooktop burners. It might take 3-4 attempts of turning the gas off/on to get the pilot to light the burner. I've found bumping up the propane "just a tiny bit" really helps this. I've also found that not all burners are created equal. I have one that JUST DOES NOT PUT OUT AS MUCH as the others. Even if I bump the gas up, it will just take eons for a large pot of water to get to a boil. It's been boiled out via the vaporvac method and I've taken pipe cleaners to all the holes... it still just doesn't put out as much. I've had the air shutter totally open and the gas as high as I can get it to match that air flow... and it still doesn't match the others. I eventually replaced it with another (less pretty) burner from my parts pile. I've noticed the same thing too. Drives me crazy sometimes (my wife says for me, crazy is a putt, not a drive). Sometimes just moving the burners around makes everything fine and other times it takes a new part. When I was serving my first apprenticeship I worked for an old journeyman who was one of the best diagnosticians I've ever known. I was working on a truck where you'd turn on the turn signals and a headlight would flash, 4 ways made the dash lights flash and so on and was getting frustrated that none of the possible solutions fit the symptoms. He looked at me and said "Well you just don't have enough symptoms". Then he said "It's just like detective work, you keep gathering stuff until you solve the case. Every thing you do is progress whether or not it fixes it at that point". That was only one of many things he taught me. Another was "First try to figure out what someone else has done to it". He was a Bataan Death March survivor and had a great outlook on life and I often wondered how much that impacted his outlook. Plenty, I'm sure.
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Post by sporko on Nov 19, 2015 15:34:41 GMT -5
I will throw a wrench in here. I know for propane the manual says to tighten adjustable orifices down tight. But... I've found that if I do that I get inconsistent lighting on the cooktop burners. It might take 3-4 attempts of turning the gas off/on to get the pilot to light the burner. I've found bumping up the propane "just a tiny bit" really helps this. I've also found that not all burners are created equal. I have one that JUST DOES NOT PUT OUT AS MUCH as the others. Even if I bump the gas up, it will just take eons for a large pot of water to get to a boil. It's been boiled out via the vaporvac method and I've taken pipe cleaners to all the holes... it still just doesn't put out as much. I've had the air shutter totally open and the gas as high as I can get it to match that air flow... and it still doesn't match the others. I eventually replaced it with another (less pretty) burner from my parts pile. I've noticed the same thing too. Drives me crazy sometimes (my wife says for me, crazy is a putt, not a drive). Sometimes just moving the burners around makes everything fine and other times it takes a new part. When I was serving my first apprenticeship I worked for an old journeyman who was one of the best diagnosticians I've ever known. I was working on a truck where you'd turn on the turn signals and a headlight would flash, 4 ways made the dash lights flash and so on and was getting frustrated that none of the possible solutions fit the symptoms. He looked at me and said "Well you just don't have enough symptoms". Then he said "It's just like detective work, you keep gathering stuff until you solve the case. Every thing you do is progress whether or not it fixes it at that point". That was only one of many things he taught me. Another was "First try to figure out what someone else has done to it". He was a Bataan Death March survivor and had a great outlook on life and I often wondered how much that impacted his outlook. Plenty, I'm sure. I had almost the exact same thing happen with my Dad's car. Turn on the turn signal and radio would flash or he would turn on headlights and the interior lights would come on... just crazy makes-no-sense things. I scratched long and hard and was coming up with NOTHING. Finally I sat him down and asked him if he had done anything to the car in the last month. "No nothing much. I did replace a bulb for a burned out tail light." He had put in a single filament "one-way" bulb in his tail light where he needed a 2 filament bulb. Every time he turned on one circuit, it would also light a second circuit.
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Post by nana on Nov 19, 2015 23:03:12 GMT -5
Thanks for all the ideas, but my head is spinning a little. I did mention that I'm not handy, right? For instance, what is a venturi? Just when I think I may be catching on to some of this...
I was on the phone with Don tonight and he talked me through adjusting my broiler. I thought I had it OK, but the chicken I cooked the other night took way too long. Now all the holes light up right away and it looks like it puts out some serious heat. He said he would send me a new piece for the thermowell, but we could not solve the oven mystery. In fact it got even stranger. Tonight the pilot light stayed lit, so I got excited and decided to bake banana bread because I thought whatever it was had fixed itself. I turned on the oven to preheat, and I'm mixing up the batter and I smell gas, and I turn around and the pilot light is still on, the three little holes closest to it are lit, and nothing else, but a strong smell of gas. I got scared, turned off the oven and turned on the fan, and left another message for Don. Tomorrow I'm calling the gas company and see if they'll make an emergency call. They had told me when I got Marilyn that they probably couldn't make it out until the first week of December with the holidays and all, so we thought we'd try to do all this ourselves, but I think it's time to call in reinforcements.
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Post by mach12 on Nov 20, 2015 0:29:24 GMT -5
Not handy? Hardly! You've done great. It's just all new stuff. I know it doesn't seem like it at the moment but it'll all come together and everything you've been doing will really be beneficial. When you get your next Chambers (you know you will!) you'll be ready to tackle it yourself. And you'll even be a graduate of the University of Marilyn! Does it get any better than that?
It's pretty cool how a venturi works and they're all around us. There are some good articles, like the wiki article on it, so next time you can't sleep and don't want to take any meds reading that might do it.
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Post by evangeline on Nov 20, 2015 8:28:16 GMT -5
ok, tagging onto your learning curve, Nana. I can see getting into adjusting the orifices and burners, kind of looking forward to it. But the oven problem would scare me, too. Everyone - is there a thread about the tools you need to do all the small part adjustments? I have needle nose pliers, at least.
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Post by chipperhiker on Nov 20, 2015 12:25:00 GMT -5
You don't need anything special, evangeline. Here's what I used to adjust the burners on my stove: a couple small wrenches that match the orifice caps (size varies with the stove), flathead screwdrivers (small for pilots and bigger for air shutters), a safety pin or other sharp object for poking out burner hole crud, and a lighter.
Nana, you're doing great!! You aren't giving yourself nearly enough credit for what you've accomplished! Calling in reinforcements is a great opportunity to learn. When the gas tech comes, hang around and vacuum up any knowledge he is willing to share and watch how he works. If they understand that you're genuinely interested, most people are more than happy to share what they know.
Bravery around gas comes slowly. I'd never worked with gas, beyond using a modern gas stove, before Miss Agatha moved in. My progress came in stages because the orifice cap for the oven was completely wrong and took some shipping time to get straightened out. The oven was actually kind of terrifying when I lit it the first time - like a big campfire in a confined space, and that made me slow WAY down!! In retrospect, it was a good thing that I had to wait on the oven, as it gave me time to get comfortable with the process on the less intimidating portions of the stove. Anyway, I started with the upper pilot, then the upper burners, and worked from there. Once I'd gotten them adjusted properly, the process started to make more sense. After using the upper burners for a few days, I started on the t-well, which seemed a bit more intimidating, being harder to see and down in a hole, etc., but the pilot was super simple to adjust, and it was actually kind of fun, since I'd already done it once before. It just went like that, easier with each burner. Still, when I eventually did get to the oven, I was none too excited to work with that campfire demon! Luckily, with the right orifice cap and mixer point set, it was much better.
Once you've gotten all the burners fixed up, it starts to feel less like you're doing something kind of hairy-scary, and more like you're just changing some controls in a process that makes sense. Give yourself time and just go slowly. Your comfort level with gas adjustments will increase as you exercise your new skills.
And as aside, I want to remind anyone with a "new" stove to leak check, leak check, leak check. Not only is it a critical exercise, but it's a huge confidence-building procedure, requiring only a bit of soapy water in a spray bottle, a flashlight, a mirror, and a couple small wrenches in case you do see any bubbling. You learn how to trace all of the gas lines, and confirm to yourself that the connections are sound. Doing it yourself is important for those two reasons alone, but the reality is that things can happen during shipping, and over time, so don't assume there are no leaks just because there aren't 'supposed to be' any leaks. I know that it's a bit late to bring this up, but the time to do leak checking is really before you start adjusting the burners. You don't want to be lighting things up unless you know where all the gas is flowing.
Hang in there, nana. You're a trooper!
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Post by nana on Nov 20, 2015 15:43:35 GMT -5
We've always had gas stoves, and I've always been respectful of them, but not afraid to light them with a match, or anything like that. We did test the connections with the soapy water, and I feel like I do kind of have a better understanding of the adjustment process now, but all I could think of last night was that house that blew up some years back up here. It was built out of cement blocks. A tenant tampered with the gas lines, and the house was blown to smithereens. I may be willing to expand my horizons a little, but not that much!! So here I sit, waiting for the gas company.
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Post by vaporvac on Nov 20, 2015 16:46:14 GMT -5
Nana, I'm wondering if you don't have the by-pass burner pilot turned on. You need that working to have the oven work. It's very easy to turn on and adjust and a gas technician probably wouldn't even know to do it and would just red tag the whole thing. the oven modulates instead of going on/off and it need the low by-pass burner to do it. Just a thought.
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Post by nana on Nov 20, 2015 21:03:20 GMT -5
Do you need the bypass burner if it has the red buttoned safety switch?
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Post by vaporvac on Nov 21, 2015 0:38:47 GMT -5
Yes. I believe you do. The standing pilot just takes the place of the match lit one. It's used to light both the main high flame and the by-pass.It's on the same manifold where the old oven pilot screw would be. At least that's my understanding. I don't have the standing pilot, but I don't see how the oven could modulate without the by-pass or stay at a low setting. The main high flame would go off when temp is almost reached , but the by-pass couldn't take over to keep the oven temp. Someone else had this problem recently.
I currently can't use my oven because it needs the pilot on (the turn pin is broken) and that lights the bypass. I can turn the oven on, but it can't function properly without the bypass.. I'll try to find the instr. in the manual. Hopefully, Chuckie or someone else with the standing pilot can comment.
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Post by nana on Nov 21, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5
Well, the two guys the gas company sent worked on her for an hour and a half and could not get the oven to light reliably, so I guess the bypass burner is a moot point for now. I forwarded a copy of their report to Don, and he said he is going to contact them directly and work to get this resolved. The thermowell orifice was broken, so they capped off that line for now until I can get the new part. But Thanksgiving dinner with Marilyn is a bust for this year, except for stovetop things. My daughter will have to do the turkey and pies and things in her oven.
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Post by vaporvac on Nov 21, 2015 13:21:53 GMT -5
Hmmm. That's too bad. I should have said that on stoves like mine (without the standing pilot) the oven won't work if the by-pass isn't on and calibrated correctly. That's why the instructions say to calibrate that FIRST by lowering the temp to 70 to start and adjust the bypass. Then move on to the main burner. Did they follow the directions from the Chambers' manual? I know you want Don's input, of course, and the gas co. to fix it, but we're detectives over here and really want to solve this mystery, so feel free to post any parts of their report if you like. Bummer about the orifice.... it would have been nice to do stuff in the well for Tgiving. I first had Althea going just about this time three!!!! years ago. I did Indian Pudding in the well over night and kept the mashed potatoes warm in their casserole in the well. I even found a Lisk roaster for $4 at my local thrift. You'll have her up for Xmas is you celebrate. In any case, once she's totally good to go, everyday cooking will feel like a holiday. Maybe it's best to get a little experience with her before cooking for the troops! :_
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Post by pooka on Nov 21, 2015 14:40:41 GMT -5
That IS too bad, but it'll all work out eventually. It's tough sometimes to diagnose long distance like this. Sometimes it's best to back up to the beginning & start over & eliminate all the possible glitches to zero in on the likely problem. I'll assume (I hope not wrongly) that the gas company checked the oven pilot to see it was properly heating the the thermocouple for the safety valve & that it was putting out the proper voltage to power the valve. Now follow the instructions on how to calibrate the oven burner flame height at the thermostat to the letter. As long as it lights, don't worry if the air/gas mixture is correct or not. If the bypass flame is set too low, that might be your problem right there. The way the thermostat works, is that when the gas is turned on, there is always a flow of gas through the bypass to the burner to maintain a low flame. When the temperature calls for it, the thermostat opens up to increase the gas flow for a larger flame to raise the temperature. Once the heat probe tells the thermostat it's approaching the setting, it slowly closes again leaving only the bypass again. This is my oven in bypass & full on mode. Your oven should have a higher full on flame than my older 1935 oven, but basically the same. There should always be a low flame burning on the main burner, but if it's too low it may go out while still allowing enough gas to flow for you to smell but not enough to relight from the pilot until the thermostat opens up to raise the temperature. This is full on though the mica window. The pilot light is dead center. I wish I could be there to help, but it not possible. We may get this whipped yet.
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Post by vaporvac on Nov 21, 2015 18:08:07 GMT -5
A picture's worth a thousand words. Good going, Pooka.My impression is that they didn't even light the by-pass, but as you say, it may just be too low. Nana, most modern ovens no longer have a modulating burner as it's expensive to make.... even very high-end ranges. That's why they don't bake as well which has led to people thinking electric convection is better for baking. From experience i can say that isn't true. Many times older cooks used to complain that the new-fangled stove their well-intentioned kids bought them wouldn't bake as well. That's one of the major reasons why.
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Post by nana on Nov 21, 2015 18:17:21 GMT -5
The guys thought it was a bad thermocouple, and Don mentioned it might be a factory defect as well. They said they'd seen something like that on a gas furnace, where it would work for random lengths of time, but eventually go out. As to the rest of it, I'm letting Don and them talk all that over amongst themselves. If there's anything they need to know that they're not aware of,, I'm sure Don will tell them. Going through me is like having a translator who only knows one of the languages!
I was pretty upset last night, but I've regained my equilibrium. I've been telling myself there are people in Paris and Syria right now who wish they had my problems, so I'll count my blessings and be patient a little bit longer.
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Post by nana on Nov 21, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5
I know I didn't do the bypass burner thing, but I never had the burner on long enough for it to need to go to the bypass, and we never tried to calibrate the thermostat either, because being so busy with the apples we thought we'd leave it till later, and then the pilot kept going out. My plan was to heat up the oven to calibrate it and then bake a pizza since it would be hot already, but we never got that far. Then I was going to do it with the banana bread, but then the oven wouldn't even light at all. Oh, when the gas guys were getting ready to go, they smothered the oven pilot so supposedly the flow of gas to the oven would be shut off, and when they went to check the pilot with a lighter, it lit right up again! Go figure. They ended up disconnecting the thermocouple so at least it would be safe and I couldn't start up the gas by accident.
As an aside, I wish my avatar was right side up! I just noticed that!
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Post by kellyjo40 on Dec 17, 2015 2:13:24 GMT -5
just curious, but did you get this solved?
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Post by nana on Dec 17, 2015 18:49:29 GMT -5
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Post by mach12 on Dec 17, 2015 19:58:50 GMT -5
Yes, I believe I did!!! In fact, even as I write this, I have biscuits baking in my NEWLY FIXED OVEN!!!! Can you tell I'm excited? Just today the gas company guy was here, and put the new orifice cap in my thermowell and did whatever was required to fix the oven and (keep your fingers crossed here) I do think my long wait is over! I wasn't home when they were here, but my husband said they needed to move the pilot/thermocouple assembly closer to the burner and then adjust the pilot to be fairly high to keep the proper voltage to the valve, but it is working and I couldn't be happier. I'm really, really impressed with your gas company techs! So many these days just want to scratch their heads and tell you that you need a new stove or refrigerator if it's not an obvious fault and a quick repair - even if it's only 4 or 5 years old! My hat's off to them.
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Post by vaporvac on Dec 17, 2015 23:41:39 GMT -5
Yeah! Not only do so many not even know what to do, they'll tag your stove as "unsafe". Does your company regularly work on old stoves and were they familiar with Chambers prior. It just seems like a lot to absorb, but they seem to take it seriously. Yeah again! You're going to love the oven with the spot on temp provided by the bypass burner and the thermal mass provided by the baffle. Report back!
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Post by nana on Dec 18, 2015 5:56:27 GMT -5
The gods are cruel, cruel, cruel. I woke up at 5:00 this morning violently ill with the stomach bug those little germ factories at school gave me. So my first full day with a fully operatioal Chambers and I don't even want to think about food. I was going to put the little vomiting smiley face here, but it was too gross.
The gas tech said he had never heard of or seen a stove like this before, but he was impressed with some of the features and with the solid construction. They are a nice local family company, new to me since I had the new gas line put in, but they've been around for years. He seemed like the kind of guy who likes to tinker with things and figure them out, not the kind to just give up. Lucky for me I guess!
My biscuits turned out OK, fully baked but not quite as brown as I like. I was eager to try CWTGTO even with biscuits, so I did the last 5 min with the oven off. But I started them at only 375* which is what the recipe called for, but I think now I should have started them at a higher temp if I'm turning off the oven, or just kept them on at 375 for the whole time. And I ended up losing them anyway,(eeeewwww) so I don't even consider them a real first meal from the oven. We had them with sausage gravy, which I may never want to eat again....
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Post by mach12 on Dec 18, 2015 11:48:59 GMT -5
Biscuits and gravy have always been one of my wife's favorites and making her some always helped a bit when I was in trouble. I've made a LOT of biscuits and gravy over the years!
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Post by nana on Dec 20, 2015 9:59:51 GMT -5
It WAS one of my favorite meals. Maybe someday it will be again. I'm still not 100%. My grandson got sick right around the same time I did, so he missed school on Friday too, but he bounced back bright eyed and bushy tailed already yesterday. Ah youth!
I can report that I baked a small winter squash in the thermowell last night, (plain mashed squash, with a tiny bit of butter and a pinch of salt--one step above baby food. That's where I was at last night) at 15 min gas on and about 1 1/2 hours off in the ddthermobaker on top of a brand new flame master diffuser. It was velvety soft and perfectly done, except the cut sides which were face down were a little scorched. Perhaps only 10 min of gas, or maybe turn the burner flame down a bit, although the flame looks perfectly adjusted according to the manual. They did a nice job. I also put a pot of water in there overnight with my old meat thermometer in it which is admittedly a little inexact, but it showed between 150 and 155 degrees which is comfortably in the "safe zone", so I'll have no worries about leaving things in there for a long time. The oven also holds at about the same temp. But I suppose I should get one of those probe digital termometers to get a more precise reading....
I took a rack of spare-ribs out of the freezer Thursday night before I got sick, so I'm going to have to cook them today whether I'm up to eating them or not. I rubbed them down with dry rub last night, and they will go into the oven today probably around noon, in my size 3 or 4 lisk roaster (I still haven't quite figured it out, but I'm leaning towards #3), with 20 min of gas and then gas off till dinnertime. Wish me luck.
I do SO love turning out the kitchen light at night and seeing the tiny glow of the little mica window winking back at me. It's like she's fully alive now!
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Post by nana on Dec 20, 2015 20:31:00 GMT -5
So the ribs went in the oven. I ended up giving them 25 minutes out of an abundance of caution, 20 minutes uncovered and 5 more after the lid went on. I was starting to get a little of my appetite back smelling them cooking, although tis true, you don't smell them as strongly as you do with a conventional oven. At 6:00 I opened the door. It was the moment of truth. Go big or go home. Like Yoda once said--do, or do not, there is no try. And I'll admit I was a teeny bit nervous. What if something went wrong and they were still mostly raw? I lifted the lid of the roaster, and they were nicely browned with a crusty spice coating. I stuck a fork in to put them on a platter and oh my--they were absolutely amazing! Think of every cliche about perfectly done ribs you've ever heard and then double it and double it again. I wish I could have pigged out, but I treated my still tender tummy to one delectable rib, and a few rosemary roasted potatoes ala thermowell, also perfectly done. Accolades all around. Everything I have heard from all of you, my Chambers friends, about cooking with these stoves is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Post by cinnabar on Dec 20, 2015 20:37:15 GMT -5
The stove jedi triumph again.
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Post by pooka on Dec 21, 2015 1:51:47 GMT -5
Well the proof's in the pudding so to speak. We may be a little crazy, but we know our stoves. Sometimes it's a ponderous journey getting one of these old girls settled in, once they are, they shine like the gems that they are. You've only scratched the surface but have the rest of your life to rediscover cooking the Chambers way.
Most any old stove before the 60s will outperform a modern one because they were just built better. Chambers can be a whole new way of cooking if you choose to take advantage of it's unique features. If not, they're still darn good stoves no matter what. They may not be one of these fire breathing professional or "professional style" stoves that some might crave, but it will out cook & keep cooking long after those others hit the scrap yard.
They're almost like having a smarter & more talented pal cooking with you. They're that eager & dependable friend that's always there ready to help you out. They appeal to our most basic nature, good food. If you're not a true believer now. You will be.
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