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Post by chipperhiker on Aug 5, 2014 21:42:09 GMT -5
OK, so I am going to admit that I didn't read through every single response above, so someone may have already responded, but my burners (two, actually) were doing the EXACT same thing - very regular small puffs of flame indicating gas buildup that was igniting periodically.
After having no luck after I tried cleaning the flash tubes and the flash tube gas port on the burner, I changed tacts. I suspected that there wasn't enough gas at the flash tube to support a steady flame, so each puff actually extinguished the flash tube flame until enough gas built up again to repeat the process. Actually it was your previous burner adjustment video that gave me the idea, Rebekah!
With that in mind, I increased the gas flow to each burner that was misbehaving (all three top burners in my case were a bit off), then adjusting the air shutter until the flames were looking good again. Each time I made sure there was a small flame constantly present at the site where each flash tube contacts the burner (that wasn't the case before my latest adjustments). Voila! The puffing flame problem disappeared, even when I turn the burner down to a low simmer.
As an added bonus, my one burner that wouldn't previously light off the pilot now does so with no hesitation.
So, I'm thinking that changing sites for your gas hookup from your restoration worksite to the current hookup in the kitchen has left your burners a bit out of adjustment. The different configuration in your supply lines may have resulted in a slightly lower local gas supply line pressure.
As for all of our collective non-lighting burners, I wonder how many are actually due to being just slightly out of adjustment, as mine were?
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Post by lwagne on Aug 5, 2014 23:04:29 GMT -5
I leave my pilot on also. It's there and I want it to work. Also, when my burners won't light, it likewise makes me fussy so I start to dink with them. It seems the longer I have had the stove in use, the less I have to fiddle. They finally settle in and maybe they finally burn out their problem. I had trouble with the oven door not shutting at all on the A, like yours. I propped it closed for a while while it was baking, and now it seems to close easier, though not all the time. I moved it out to look for the nut that holds the oven to adjust it, but haven't located it. Have to go back to the old posts to find it.
I also agree with the pan on the burner. I think, especially with propane, the stuff seems to go airborne before it can light. Probably that's why it lights when you blow on it, it blows some of the gas to the flame.
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Post by karitx on Aug 6, 2014 11:36:10 GMT -5
Oh wow, bekahmancino, you have a beautiful kitchen/stove setup there!
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Post by sporko on Aug 7, 2014 11:04:34 GMT -5
I leave my pilot on also. It's there and I want it to work. Also, when my burners won't light, it likewise makes me fussy so I start to dink with them. It seems the longer I have had the stove in use, the less I have to fiddle. They finally settle in and maybe they finally burn out their problem. I agree with this 100%. I have also discovered (or maybe ... theorized... I haven't put it to a real scientific test as yet...) My oven pilot seems to go out for a few days in a row every so often... then it will work for months at a time. The last time it happened was right after a propane refill. I am thinking ... maybe all the others were too and I just didn't think about it. My theory is that the fill gets a bit of air bubbles in the tank that will burp out here and there over the next few days. Edit to add: This only occurs with the oven pilot (which will pop the safety valve). It has never happened with the top pilot or the well pilot.
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Post by lwagne on Aug 7, 2014 21:55:13 GMT -5
We have two 60's models Vulcan ovens on propane - and they tend to go out when the tank is filled. I agree with the (air)bubble theory. Especially if the tank was empty. The propane has left the line and must have allowed air in - I think. Also, in my case, they keep turning the regulator down to "normal" and normal won't feed two Vulcan ovens!
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Post by sporko on Aug 8, 2014 14:51:06 GMT -5
We have two 60's models Vulcan ovens on propane - and they tend to go out when the tank is filled. I agree with the (air)bubble theory. Especially if the tank was empty. The propane has left the line and must have allowed air in - I think. Also, in my case, they keep turning the regulator down to "normal" and normal won't feed two Vulcan ovens! We don't ever let it hit empty.... But it's delivered as a liquid and I'm guessing some small amount of air may be introduced in the fill.
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Post by lwagne on Aug 8, 2014 23:21:05 GMT -5
Sporko - since propane sinks, it does seem logical that a few air bubbles would get in there.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 19, 2014 7:43:52 GMT -5
Greetings, all. I know I've been absent for a while. Lots going on. Stove is working beautifully. All burners are lighting via the pilot (only one is temperamental, and that is limited to relighting after it's been on and turned off). You guys have another video to look forward ( ) to when I finally finish cleaning and exporting it. It was taken while I was adjusting the burners to light from the pilot. I think I'd mentioned at some point that the compression ring (aka ferrule) that was on the line from the thermostat to the pilot had become disconnected. Actually, the line snapped just behind the ferrule. After extensive searching, it seems that the lubrication industry was the only where a 5/32" size was used. Bijur manufacture a 5/32" ferrule, which can be purchased from their distributors. www.bijurdelimon.com/nc/us/usa/find-a-distributor/distributors.htmlI was fortunate enough to contact a company an hour away who have sent a few to me at no charge!! Often with these industrial companies, it's more of a pain to go through the creation of an account (their systems are set up for corporate accounts, and not one-off individual purchases), so the cost for inexpensive parts (I'm going to guess that these are no more than 50c/ea) can just be absorbed into their overhead. I can't tell you how excited I am, as I've not been able to CWTGTO in the oven due to no pilot! I've sent Baked beans as my first experiment. I regularly CWTGTO in the Thermowell - brown rice, chilli, curries, soups, veggies ... More later - just wanted to add that update.
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Post by chipperhiker on Aug 19, 2014 9:46:30 GMT -5
So how did you end up fixing your puffing flash tube, Rebekah? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 19, 2014 12:31:47 GMT -5
Oh ... come on now, Jenn ... that'll detract from the video! lol Honestly, I'd have to look back at the video to remind myself fully. The fundamental is that combined air+gas pressure at one end of the flash tube has to be the same as at the other end. An imbalance will cause it not to light, or cause it to build up and then puff into momentary ignition. I know I started by turning my pilot down to 3/8 (the instructions said that it had a tolerance of 3/8"-1/2"). Then, I closed the air to the burner, and turned the gas way down at the orifice. I then manually lit the burner and opened the orifice and air just enough to give me a well defined blue 3/8" cone at each port (we're talking about the outline of the part nearest to the port - not the overall length of the flame). I wanted to make sure that when the lever was lifted all of the way, the burner flames wouldn't be too high, so that's why I started lean. At that point, if there wasn't enough pull to allow for ignition from the pilot (ie. good flame at burner, but not enough pressure to equal that at the pilot), I opened the air adjustment sleeve on the flash tube itself. I could be wrong, but I want to say that I increased the air at the burner and/or in the flash tube in order to stop the puff. Too much air at the burner, and you'll have flames dancing off of the ports (there's a BEAUTIFUL example of this in the video, if I don't say so myself). The truth of the matter is that I haven't made a step-by-step troubleshooting guide ... and after feeling really smug about getting the first lighting beautifully, the second was a total PAIN. I think it took the better part of an hour to sort out the first two burners. The third was easier, despite working on that the next morning, so I guess I made some sense out of the whole thing. Ultimately, I've made successful guesses, largely fuelled by the formidable process of elimination. Hopefully when the video is up, the process will make more sense. I just kept telling myself that pressure at burners must equal pressure at pilot - otherwise, you'll not have the balance needed to allow gas from the burners to travel to the pilot, and the ignited gas to return to the burners. With that understanding, experimentation is slightly less blind. I have two sides of scribbles too - mostly statements that I jotted down as experimenting. I'll transcribe those too. There - now you've got your spoiler Pictures still say a thousand words though, right?
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Post by vaporvac on Aug 19, 2014 15:32:11 GMT -5
That's great you were able to get the part and thanks for including the link. I am a bit confused as to which pilot you're referring as a one isn't necessary to CWTGTO in the oven, only the TWELL. Did you install a safety system ordo you mean that you couldn't light the original pilot and thus, the burner? (Just trying to get it straight in my head.)
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Post by chipperhiker on Aug 19, 2014 16:24:00 GMT -5
So, it sounds like your stove needed the same thing mine did for the 'ol puffing flash tube trick - adjustment. I'll be looking for that video, as the last one was readily helpful.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 19, 2014 18:48:50 GMT -5
vaporvac. I'm certainly a beginner, but after 3 hours off, my oven temperature had fallen from 450 to 150. (It had been at 450 for an hour.) Given that baked beans must cook for considerably longer than 3 hours, I figured that the pilot would be pretty important for the whole thing to work. 150 seems a bit low for a further 2 hours or so. Top-up heat from the pilot would enable a slower decline in temperature over a longer period of time, wouldn't it? Can you elaborate as to why you're saying it's not necessary? As for the pilot itself, the gas line had snapped just past the ferrule on the thermostat side, so I've had to use a bbq lighter to light it. It functions fine as a conventional oven. Just didn't give much consideration to CWTGTO possibilities. Sure wish I had a heat resistant remote thermometer to log temperatures at constant intervals.
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Post by vaporvac on Aug 19, 2014 20:13:32 GMT -5
Hey Rebekah. I didn't mean to imply anything, I was just asking. I feel like I'm always a beginner myself as I'm constantly learning from everyone on this forum. I also don't have an A, just a B and Cs with no standing pilot so people with earlier stoves are probably better qualified to comment. I have to hand-light my oven. All of the Bs and many of the Cs were designed this way for match-lighting. The CWTGTO feature of these ovens is different than the Twell as the latter has openings even when the back vent is closed, so heat escapes. However, when the gas to the ovens is turned off, it is effectively a sealed compartment. I always thought that CWTGTO referred to JUST the retained heat. That seems a bit precipitous drop in temp for only three hours, but maybe others can pipe in with their experiences.
I always do my beans in the Twell for this reason: to take advantage of the constant pilot temp. It does baked beans to perfection. I recently posted how I do it in the vegetarian section. I'll research later, but Chuckie at one time posted directions for his baked beans in the oven WITH a standing pilot and 58ltd has posted his without. So between the three methods, you can hopefully get some going! I guess I didn't know the A's oven came with a standing pilot or hadn't caught that you'd installed one. Like I said, I'm most familiar with the Bs and Cs, and their pilots (except with the later Cs) don't stay lit when the gas is off. i'm just fascinated by the evolution of these stoves. I'd be VERY interested in a heat resistant remote thermometer. Something to google.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 19, 2014 20:34:12 GMT -5
Interesting. Very interesting. My A has a vent flap at the back, and two sprung round covers on the underside ... but they close with the turning off of the gas. Perhaps the insulation was improved after the As? pooka - do you have anything on this? My Thermowell has an opening at the front (visible through the pot/pan door) that heat could escape through, but I cannot think of anything on the oven that would be similar and would cause a leak of heat. I hadn't thought about baking beans in the well. I've not got a single pot, and haven't quite figured out how to hack up the SS pot I got from Wally world to fit fully (it's too tall). I'll check out those recipes now. Thank you for bringing them to my attention
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Post by pooka on Aug 19, 2014 20:37:35 GMT -5
Rebekah, the pilot light in the oven only works when the burner is lit. It's what we refer to as the by-pass. It's there to relight the main burner if it should go out when the thermostat calls for more heat. I'd check your dampers to be sure they are closing properly. Then check the oven door seal by closing it on a piece of paper in different places to see if you can pull it out easily or is it clamped in place by the tight seal.
I think the problem is that you aren't starting at a high enough temperature. Most things like a roast or baked beans in the oven, the cookbooks recommend setting the thermostat at 550-600 degrees (500 in the model B & later) for 20 or 25 minute before shutting it off for CWTGTO. I've cooked roasts in my oven that way & had the temperature be 190 after 3 or 4 hours. It's not so much about high heat, but adding maximum amount of heat for a short period.
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Post by lwagne on Aug 19, 2014 21:03:10 GMT -5
There is a remote oven thermometer available. It has a probe that goes in the oven and the rest of the unit sticks on the side. Probably, it is a remote "meat" thermometer, but I use it in my oven. BUT, the Vulcans have a pretty erratic seal and the little wire will not disturb anything. Not sure about the seal on a Chambers. I'll post the name if I find it.
Good old Amazon, Polder or Taylor Remote Cooking Thermometer, cheap, probe goes in the oven, remote goes on the outside. The wire on the probe is pretty skinny.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 19, 2014 22:01:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, pooka. That's saved me from the headache of wondering why the pilot shuts off with the burner when I get everything hooked up tomorrow (fingers crossed!). I wonder if that's part of the important information that was eaten by the rodent... I did test the dampers after cleaning/spraying to ensure full closure. So unless something's been oddly knocked, I can't imagine that's the problem. Tested the seal with paper. It's laughable! (It is supposed to be metal-on-metal, right? No gaskets?) How in the world does a person adjust the door?! Seems that I have an acceptable seal at the top, but it's very easy to slide the paper up the sides while the door is shut. Can't easily test the bottom without taking the front panel off (that will have to wait for tomorrow).
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Post by vaporvac on Aug 19, 2014 22:43:43 GMT -5
I think you may have found your issue! It is metal on metal; when it expands with the heat it's a very tight seal, but shouldn't be too bad even cold. I think lwagne just spent some quality time adjusting her door so she might have some relevant pointers. (Nice recipes, btw!) Also, Chuckie's bb recipe is for a pressure cooker and 58ltd's is baked continuously in his O&M? oven! Wouldn't you know. After you fix the door, try the Idle hour for their timing in the oven, but you could use any sort of casserole in the Twell. Here's a gander at my stoneware beanpot and the Twell pot I rigged up from a SS pressure cooker. The bale handle is removable and the lid is used inverted. It fits perfectly and doesn't burn because it's heavy SS. Attachments:
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Post by pooka on Aug 19, 2014 23:17:29 GMT -5
The by-pass is not a standing pilot light that you would find on a stove with a safety valve. Chambers didn't come from the factory with those until the later 50s. I don't know exactly. You can pretty much follow the instructions in the model B manual for your model A, because even though they use different thermostats, they work the same way. They redesigned the oven burner & increased the size if the air intake on the B, so the cookbook revised the recommended temperature from 550-600 degrees down to 500. This is reflected in the 1936 cookbook we've got posted. It must have been given out with a model B before the newer 1939 Edition of the Idle Hour Cook Book was available. On page one, they've pasted a correction for model B users. 1936 cook book entitled How To Cook With The Gas Turned Off The main place where you'll lose heat is the top of the oven door or anywhere high up in the oven where the insulation may have settled leaving gaps in it's coverage. Think of the oven or the Thermowell as an inverted container of air submerged in water. It only loses air if there's a leak high up. Since hot air rises like air in water, the same principles applies. The only real way of adjusting the door is to tighten the door catch by removing thin washers from under it to force the latch to push the door tighter. On the model C, they added four screws at the top of the door frame that would allow you to warp the frame to adjust the fit of the seal. The model B service manual does tell you that you can dress the seal with a file if there are any imperfections in the flat surface to correct the metal to metal seal. But the frame & the door are precision machined for a pretty much air tight seal like air tight wood stoves.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 21, 2014 7:49:12 GMT -5
My ferrule(s) arrived, and the bypass pilot works without any issue (no surprise there). I used the oven this morning, and took the opportunity to test the seal at temperature. Oven was at 350. The sides weren't as bad, but I could still pull paper out. Not slide it up and down as I could when it was cold, but still there's a gap. The top and bottom have a tight seal - even cold. What can I do to rectify this? lwagne - it was suggested that you had some experience in the oven door adjustment area. Are you able to share any tips or processes? Many thanks.
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Post by melissaf on Aug 21, 2014 9:01:12 GMT -5
Rebekah - I'm working on an A also. The oven door can be adjusted the same way as described in the model B service manual. Page 12 has a diagram that shows the door stop rod/spring and page 13 gives some additional information on correcting the door seal. My door wasn't sealing on the right side and I was able to correct it by adjusting the nuts on the end of the door stop rod. Here is a picture showing where one of the door stop rods comes out the back of the oven box. The nuts on mine were pretty rusty so I had to remove the back cover to break them loose. If yours aren't rusted, you should be able to adjust them without removing the back cover. There are two oval holes in the back cover for access.
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 21, 2014 13:31:39 GMT -5
melissaf, you're a star. Thank you. I totally should have known that too!! Grrr. Guess I'm gonna have to pull her back out of her home to make this adjustment. What ever is hubby gonna say?! I'll take the opportunity to put all of the screws in on the back too. hehehe. Thanks again
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Post by lwagne on Aug 21, 2014 19:47:55 GMT -5
lwagne - it was suggested that you had some experience in the oven door adjustment area. Are you able to share any tips or processes? Many thanks. I gave up on finding the elusive nut that tightens the door frame hinge. I gave a quick look at the back and just did not see it and I have been to busy to dig around with a picture of the post. The door seems to be getting better as I use it. I suspect I packed down some insulation when I was wacking around in the slot with a long metal kabob stick! Here is the pathetic method I am using to make sure the door stays shut I'll go back to my posts and if I find the helpful posts on the door, I'll bring them here for both of us.
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Post by chipperhiker on Aug 21, 2014 23:21:44 GMT -5
Extra points for creativity, Iwagne!
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Post by karitx on Aug 22, 2014 8:03:36 GMT -5
hahaha! I love your ingenuity, lwagne!
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Post by lwagne on Aug 22, 2014 8:21:00 GMT -5
MelissaF posted the picture I was digging for. Thanks for the repost!! I can see why I did not see the bolt. Looks like you have to remove the back first. Ugh - winter project!!
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Post by Rebekah on Aug 22, 2014 10:14:13 GMT -5
Mine has an oval access point through the back panel on the left ... but not on the right. Of course, I found this out by ... well ... I'll let the picture say it all. It's nice to have a foot of space behind the stove. Not quite enough to fit in to fully remove the panel though. Enough to investigate.
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Post by cinnabar on Aug 22, 2014 10:43:33 GMT -5
That image really shows how dedicated Chambers owners are. Makes my day! cinnabar
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Post by melissaf on Aug 22, 2014 11:48:22 GMT -5
Great picture! You are correct about there only being one oval access hole. I just went to the garage and looked at my back panel and there is just one hole. The back panel actually stops a couple inches short of the side panel on the oven side. The end of the door stop rod is in that open space just about an inch from the side panel. If you crawl back under your stove, you should be able to feel it.
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