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Post by kellyjo40 on May 23, 2016 13:14:40 GMT -5
Alas, no. That is the counterdepth refrig location. Iblushed at the number of pics i had. flic.kr/p/HkmE1iThis will be her new home.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 14:32:32 GMT -5
kellyjo: what kind (brand) of vent did install over the stove? Does it vent to the outside? In keeping with the topic of these threads, we used soapstone for the counters in our 100 year-old cabin. It just looks "right." Goes great with our pastel gray 90c stove.
Thanks. Frank
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Post by kellyjo40 on Dec 4, 2016 2:24:18 GMT -5
Oh I love the pastel gray. So elegant. Since I am not elegant, I had to go with yellow, to remind me to be cheerful. Every time I look at Patience I am VERY cheerful. Still shiny and pretty after 6 months.
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Post by mach12 on Dec 4, 2016 17:12:36 GMT -5
I sure struggled with which way to go on the countertops but after waffling around for quite awhile we decided to go with butcher block. Then we started looking for something within our budget and narrowed it down to Ikea and Lumber Liquidators. Ikea only has two solid wood options (most of theirs are a thin piece of butcher block sitting on particleboard) and they were too plain so we called around to nearby LL stores and found one that had several 8 foot pieces on hand and they were on sale ($100 off each until 12/6) so we went up to look at them. Two of them are sitting in the hallway, ready to start the wetting, drying and sanding process to prep the for finish. The only thing I'm still waffling on is whether I want to stick with the beeswax & mineral oil treatment that I use on cutting boards or go with a Waterlox finish. As busy as I always seem to be I'm concerned about keeping up with regular oiling of the wood so am leaning towards the Waterlox option. I've never used it but it sounds like it's a great option. Has anyone ever used it or know anyone who has and, if so, is it a good product?
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Post by vaporvac on Dec 4, 2016 18:07:20 GMT -5
My PICC put in beautiful BB from LL. I'll see if I can dig up the pics from old emails. Just gorgeous.I think I have a can of the stuff he use to treat them with....might have been waterlox although it definitely wasn't waterproof as he found after he forgot something wet on the wood. I think I told him to just bleach it out and it seemed to work, but a hard lesson to learn. He's on vacay, but I'll email him in case he's checking them.
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Post by mach12 on Dec 4, 2016 18:46:57 GMT -5
I'd love to hear what he has to say - Thanks! I went through some posts that popped up in a search using the term "Waterlox butcher block" and there was one lady who posted about using it and then did an update after 2 years. I love it when people do that! She had a spot under the faucet handle (her faucet was mounted through the wood) that was always wet from turning off the faucet with wet hands. The water would drip off the end of the handle and sit unnoticed on the wood, eventually showing a spot. According to her it was an easy fix. Another site showed something similar and they just sanded and refinished it and you'd never know there had been a problem. Apparently the Waterlox keeps the stain from going very deep so dealing with a water stain isn't too bad. The stuff has been around a long time and it's food safe so must have something going for it.
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Post by pooka on Dec 5, 2016 11:31:59 GMT -5
mach12, Waterlox says it's a tung oil based finish, though I don't know just how it's formulated. It's my understanding that a tung oil finish it one of the best water resistant finishes for wood besides a marine varnish, which isn't really suited for use in a kitchen. The problem with tung oil is the long dying time depending on what solvent that's used with it, & the need to do many thin coats for a proper job, so it's time consuming. These days, it seems like there's no patients to do an old world finish like this. So many modern finishes seem to want to be fast drying for a quicker turn around. Time is money, & doing it the old fashion ways seem to fall by the wayside in favor of the hurry up methods.
Mineral oil or wax is a more traditional method to finish cutting boards & counter-top, but the need for regular reapplication make it a rather fastidious method for many that most people don't want to keep up with. These are simple methods to maintain if your up it.
To me, the first choice for counter-tops would be soapstone, though it's pricey. Butcher block is a second choice, but it's not cheap either depending on the wood type. Maple seems to be considered the favored choice because of it's hardness that'll hold up to the abuse of hard use, though I see cherry offered frequently too cause it is pretty, but I'm not sure how well suited it is for this purpose. I seem to remember hearing that beech & birch are favored for pastry boards. These days though, people tend to go for what's pretty, rather than what most suitable. I've seen a wide variety of woods offered for counter-tops, but I think a lot of them are more about making a pretty kitchen than using what's most suitable.
I can sympathies with a lot of people opting for a good quality laminate as the most economical choice. It comes in so many colors, patterns & edge profiles, you can have just about any look you want. But it does become tired & worn looking with heavy use. Not everyone has the deeper pockets required to afford granite or other stone & stone like offerings.
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Post by mach12 on Dec 5, 2016 14:16:23 GMT -5
Pooka, we looked at the time involved too but I really enjoy working with wood and since out laundry room is right off the kitchen and has a sink, counter and cabinets we can still manage until the kitchen is operational again. When my wife and I talked about the sequence her big question was "how long before the dishwasher can be hooked back up and when I told her that I could have it working in a temporary hookup right away all was good. Even with things all torn up we are still doing family dinners every weekend and sometimes during the week and doing the dishes by hand can be a challenge. I'll start on the countertops as soon as I get the crown molding put up. They'll need to be set on sawhorses and then wet down to raise the grain, sanded, and then repeated a couple of times until smooth. Otherwise you raise the grain when you apply the treatment (no matter which option you use). Once that's done you do the treatment and like you say that involves time too. I would prefer to do the traditional treatment but have to be realistic about my life being so crazy busy all of the time and I know I'll always be putting off doing the monthly oiling they would need so will probably be better off with the Waterlox, even if it means sanding and bleaching out stains and then re-treating in 4 or 5 years, though we're easy on countertops so should be good longer than that. The wood we selected was acacia since it's a relatively hard wood, resists splintering and cracking, and has natural antibiotic properties. We also wanted something that complements the hickory floors we're installing. We looked at soapstone and were going to go that route but simply couldn't fit it into our budget. I love laminates too and we ended up waffling between laminate and butcher block but when we saw how nice the acacia looked we really liked it, plus, if I was going with laminate I'd have wanted metal edging and we'd have had to go with stainless since my wife is allergic to many metals. Then I checked the Janka hardness chart (the link I use is ejmas.com/tin/2009tin/tinart_goldstein_0904.html) and it's almost as hard as hickory, which is one of the harder, and therefore longer wearing, flooring materials. We hope... Then when you look at the rest of the specs on acacia it's good news too, so when Lumber Liquidators put it on sale for $100 off of each 8 foot piece it was a done deal. And like my wife said, if we find that we messed up and it doesn't work out it can be easily covered with Formica, though I doubt that'll ever happen. I love the wood and am really looking forward to working with it. There's some kind of peace that comes with doing that kind of work.
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Post by nana on Dec 5, 2016 18:39:37 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, I think acacia is another name for locust, which is EXTREMELY rot resistant and strong. You can still see 100 year old untreated locust fence posts around here, holding up shreds of barbed wire that have NOT fared as well. Good choice!
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Post by pooka on Dec 6, 2016 3:53:25 GMT -5
Around here, I've heard of them using black locust for fence posts cause they're so tough. I just checked Wikipedia & it said the heartwood can last over 100 years in soil. Honey locust is used for posts too, but they're considered an invasive weed tree. They also have some wicked thorns. Acacia I thought was a tropical tree. I had to check to be sure. There are various types around the world. I've got an acacia wood salad bowl from the Philippines. I bought it for friend at the thrift store. He wanted a big wooden bowl for popcorn. When he died, it's one of the things I got to have back, It's a beautiful rich warm brown with some light & dark streaks. If mach12 counter-tops are the same wood, it would be a pretty rich look at a discount price. I can't wait to see them. This is my bowl & a small matching one. All it's ever had put in it is buttered popcorn. It's got to be over twenty years old. The funny thing about this bowl, is it was a replacement for another I had gotten him. The first one was an ordinary plain 40s, 50s fruit bowl. His grandmother put it in the sink, & filled it with water for a time. I don't know how long. It swelled up a big crack on one side, so I got this one. I've still got the other one. After a couple of years, it dried out & the crack pretty much closed up. A little sanding to even it out. Good as new.
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Post by mach12 on Dec 6, 2016 12:55:13 GMT -5
That bowl is a piece of art! Do you think it was made for a specific use?
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Post by vaporvac on Dec 6, 2016 14:58:07 GMT -5
Acacia is a tropical rainforest tree with all that entails. However, very beautiful. Pooka, I have so many of those vintage bowls in many patterns. That looks like a chip'n'dip. I have one that came with a glass insert.
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Post by pooka on Dec 6, 2016 15:08:22 GMT -5
It's a salad bowl as far as I know. It would have come with a set of the small individual ones, but I only have the one. I've seen various carved bowls & serving pieces made from the same wood. This is a particular nice looking one. That's why I got it. Acacia wood serving pieces seem to be common & will hold up to being washed in soap & water if dried imminently. It would be an ideal material for a counter-top with a dramatic look to it.
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Post by nana on Dec 6, 2016 17:31:12 GMT -5
A few minutes research revealed that the black locust is sometimes called acacia, or false acacia, but is a different species from actual acacia, although they are all in the same family of legumes, which makes them related to peas and beans! Who knew? But that is a spectacularly beautiful bowl, Pooka. Like a tiger!
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Post by mach12 on Dec 6, 2016 18:00:22 GMT -5
I was surprised at how many acacia varieties there are. And how many places in history that it was used, like where it's mentioned in Exodus with the tabernacle and Noah's Ark. It's good to know that if we keep getting the kind of rain we've gotten the past couple of months that I have some boat building material.
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Post by pooka on Dec 10, 2016 11:29:20 GMT -5
I believe I posted about this before. I don't recall if I refereed to this report, or to to a summery I read in an article on the subject. This report is about testing the safety of wood verses plastic cutting boards, but I'd assume it would apply to counter-tops too. Also I'm sure it would refer to raw wood cutting boards too & not ones with a finish applied other than mineral oil or wax. PLASTIC AND WOODEN CUTTING BOARDS Dean O. Cliver, Ph.DI remember some years ago it being recommended using plastic cutting boards rather than wood, because it was assumed the plastic was naturally more sterile than wood. No study had been done to prove the point until this study was done. It was found to be true, until you use it. Then, bacteria can persist on the plastic until it was cleaned or sanitized, while it was killed almost immediately on wood because of the naturally occurring tannin.
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Post by mach12 on Dec 10, 2016 14:11:10 GMT -5
Great info Pooka and good to know in our case since the wood from our kitchen sink cutout and the excess from the cabinets along the south wall will become cutting boards. We have several plastic cutting boards but they get used, rinsed and then go in the dishwasher. When they get marked up pretty good with knife marks I hit them with a belt sander and smooth out the surface and usually do that a couple of times before they get tossed. I keep my knives extremely sharp and that really reduces marking up the cutting board whether it's wood or plastic.
When I was a teen I worked in a meat plant as the flunky doing cleanup, sharpening knives, making up boxes (stapling), and cleaning the cutting lines. The cutting surfaces were all wood with removable sections and probably the first thing the health inspectors looked at. The guys on the butchering lines were all German, as was the owner of the plant, and nice as can be when you did well - and mean as all get out when you messed up. Not doing the knives perfectly was probably the biggest sin possible since they not only made their work harder but were more dangerous, so that was the priority. All sharpening was done by hand with a whetstone unless one got dropped or other wise damaged and had to be ground down first. Cleaning things up was the next most important thing and it was an ongoing process. Every time they took a break I pulled all of the boards, rinsed and scrubbed the whole line, put up fresh boards and a pan of sharp knives at each station, and then went to work on the boards I had removed scrubbing and pressure washing and placing in racks where they were dried with forced air under UV light. Once dried the boss would inspect them and some he'd have me sand and others would go to the storage racks ready to go out on the line in the next run. I worked my tail off but he always made sure we were well supplied with ham, rolls of New York Steak and so on. He sold out and they turned the place into an industrial machine shop or I'd be down there hounding them for a job. Better exercise than a gym and income to boot! Hopefully better than what I was getting in the 60's though...
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Post by Chuckie on Dec 25, 2016 12:38:03 GMT -5
My husband just told me a good Christmas joke for this thread: Q: Why did Santa bring only 8 reindeer with him this year? A: Because Comet stayed home to clean the sink. Father McEvoy told this tale @ Mass last night: A man asks his bud "Did you know that Jesus weighed 7' 8 oz when he was born?" " NO WAY! Now just HOW do you know that?" asks his exasperated friend. He replied "because they had 'a weigh in' the manger"... I just forward, I do not make them up!! Merry Christmas to all!! Chuckie & Monkey
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Post by evangeline on Feb 23, 2017 9:53:18 GMT -5
Confusion about wood species abounds. Nana you are right, the black locust species IS increasingly being used for decks etc. because it is so hard and long lasting. Good thing too because it is taking over the northeast woods. Robinia psuedoacacia. My industry is trying to wean itself off of the rainforest species. . . But it's a matter of widespread harvesting and supply right now. Haven't worked with it myself but would like to. Anyone doing a deck or fence: ask about it.
Back to counter tops. So our Chambers came home and PF said, 'Wow.' And then he sat on a chair in the middle of the kitchen and said 'Wow' but not in a good way. He said, 'Why are the cabinets crooked? And how come they're peeling? What's that plastic stuff? Have you been lighting candles in here? Oh crap, the tile's all cracked.' Looked at me. Threw up his hands. 'Do what you must.'
DId I say the laminate estimate came in at $68 per square foot? Holy Cow! Now I see why my dear sweet contractor made the laminate himself in the pantry. Only glue got all over the cabinets. I'm still picking it off with a fingernail.
But PF is kind of interested in zinc. Zinc! He wants the counters to tie in with the Chambers. (In fact I'm sort of fending off his proposal to do a '50s kitchen. That's how much he loves the Chambers.). So going back to earlier comments in this thread and chasing metal fabricators. Zinc is expensive. There will be no tile backsplash is what I'm saying if we splurge on zinc.
Mach12, have you posted progress pics? I lived in a rental w/butcher block countertops and they were beautiful!
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Post by mach12 on Feb 23, 2017 14:58:46 GMT -5
Mach12, have you posted progress pics? I lived in a rental w/butcher block countertops and they were beautiful! I haven't yet because every time I turn around there's another interruption. I own the house next door and rent it out and I use the shop and acreage, and lately that place has hit me with one thing after another. First it was the kitchen range, then a leak around the stove hood roof vent (3 year old roof!), and then problems on one leg of the power coming into the electrical panel. I couldn't find a problem anywhere so had the power company come out and check their side of it. They pulled the meter and one of the lugs in the base was burnt, so they wouldn't reinstall the meter until it was fixed since it was a fire hazard, which was totally legitimate. Of course, they showed up when I was on the road to San Francisco getting the Chambers Standard Heater that Dwayner found, so I had to get the stove loaded and beat feet back to fix it.
I ended up having to hire an electrician since the power company wouldn't allow me to cut the feed (something I've done a bunch of times in other locations and am totally comfortable with). And of course a snowstorm hit and the electricians were swamped. I worked a deal with one of them and got the job done (and a job offer), but more time away from the kitchen job. And then the pellet stove quit in their house so that's on today's schedule once they're up and about - both worked grave last night. Should be a quick job and then I will get back to my place.
I'll go under the house this afternoon and move the water line for the icemaker and then get the tile flooring put down where the refrigerator will go, which is the showstopper for moving forward. With the adhesive I'm using I should be able to do the grout tomorrow and then after giving it a couple of days to get fully cured I can seal the grout and move the refrigerator. I did get the two tall cabinets put in and they're nice but none of the other cabinets yet. I love the way these Ikea cabinets go in. You put in the metal bar that they hang on and then hang the cabinet on the bar. It's so much easier than the old way of bracing the cabinet up there and trying to attach to a stud while keeping things level and finding the stud through the back of the cabinet and so on. And they're solid.
Once the refrigerator is moved it'll really start moving forward fast Out will come the lower cabinets and the in go the upper cabinets (old ones are already out). The upper ones go in first so you don't have to work around the lower ones and then the lower ones go in. At that point I'll cut the butcher block countertops and then start the sanding and finishing. The sanding really makes all the difference in the final finish. I dampen, dry, and sand at least three times to raise the grain and sand down the raised parts of the grain until it stays smooth, otherwise applying the finish (or oil if going that route) raises the grain and you don't get as nice of a surface, though the counters would still be totally functional. After doing more research and talking to several countertop installers I'm convinced that Waterlox is the way to go but since I'll have some nice pieces of leftovers I'll be making cutting boards with I need to wait until the base cabinets are in before I start cutting. I'm thinking a cutting board like the ones that were in the Chambers brochures is certainly in order, though I do have what I was told was an original that came with my first standard heater (I'm not 100% convinced of that though).
I have got to have this kitchen done by the end of March at the very latest so will have pictures soon. Might not have the wood floor down at that point but only because once the kitchen cabinets are in getting the BZ finished is a higher priority than the wood floor. The BZ and the refrigerator will sit on tile and the cabinets sit on rubber sheet flooring and the wood will go just to past the toekicks so that changing out the wood will be easier if it's damaged or worn out - hopefully being replaced by someone after I'm long gone!
So there you go. You asked me what time it is and I've built you a watch... Time to get the coveralls on and get the water line moved. I hate crawlspaces!
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Post by nana on Feb 23, 2017 17:36:35 GMT -5
Your post made me tired just reading it! Not to rub it in, but today was an amazing 65 degrees and when my daughter and grandkids asked if I wanted to go get ice cream, I just had to say yes. We sat out in the sun in shirtsleeves and had ice cream cones. In February. Jealous, Mach12? Never fear, your day will come! Evangeline, what did they want to use for laminate, solid gold? Yikes! Laminate is usually the cheap option for countertops!!
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Post by evangeline on Feb 23, 2017 19:53:16 GMT -5
Mach12, your day reminds me of a classic E.B. White essay I think from 'One Man's Meat.' From his farm. Goes something like: Today I shall replace the stanchion for the cow because she comes next week and she deserves to have a stanchion, but before I do that I need to return that cross-cut saw I borrowed from the neighbor, and ask him about the cord wood he owes me. Maybe while I'm there he'll show me how to run a tube down the pig's nose because the pig isn't just right and hasn't been since she ate those green apples. If he'll help me with the pig we can run over to the old Henderson place and load the lawn roller onto his trailer. I think there's one in the abandoned barn. We may have to dig up that big boulder in the drive before we run a loaded trailer over it. But I've been meaning to do that anyway. If I can get the roller here I'll seed the side yard. That reminds me, I don't have any seed. I can pick that up when I get the lumber for the stanchion. (Goes on for three more pages.)
Nana, I have no earthly idea why the laminate was so expensive. But I got a quote from the region's largest counter top manufacturer and Lowe's confirmed it. I don't think we asked for special laminate. It was just a chip in the samples! No one said, wait: that one's lined with platinum. It was a huge shock. $2,700 for laminate. And we only have two runs! 38 square feet. My contractor had warned me that no one around here wants to do laminate any more, it's all granite and quartz and such. Lowe's said they can do anything else in the store cheaper than laminate - granite, ceasar stone, quartz, etc. Amazing to me! But then they warned us that if we put real stone on the old cabinets and then decided to replace the cabinets we'd probably crack and ruin the stone trying to pull it up. And so it goes. . .
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Post by mach12 on Feb 24, 2017 1:26:23 GMT -5
That E.B. White essay is my life! When I look back I see so much accomplished but when I look forward I see so much that needs done. Heck, there's stuff that needs to be done in every direction around here!
Nana - We had a stretch of the same weather and then the it hit with a vengeance. Beware the weather Gremlins!
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Post by melissaf on Feb 24, 2017 11:31:33 GMT -5
... But then they warned us that if we put real stone on the old cabinets and then decided to replace the cabinets we'd probably crack and ruin the stone trying to pull it up. And so it goes. . . evangeline - I had soapstone counter tops installed about 8 years ago. To make room for a Chambers, I had to rearrange most of my cabinets. We were able to remove the soapstone without cracking or damaging it. Since the counter top installer siliconed the soapstone to the top of the cabinets front & back, I had to use a thin putty knife to cut the silicone. Once the silicone was cut, we could remove the soapstone. On one long run, we didn't remove the stone since we only needed to move part of the cabinets. We were able to unscrew the cabinets that needed to be moved and slide them out from under the counter top. If you decide to go with a stone counter top and think you may want change out the cabinets later, just make sure the installer doesn't silicone the stone to the top of the cabinet. The weight of the stone will hold the tops in place and you can silicone between the top of the counter and the back splash to seal out water. $2700 for laminate is insane!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 14:04:22 GMT -5
melissaf: we, as you suggested, did not have our soapstone glued to our bottom cabinets in any way. The soapstone sits on 3/8 inch plywood over the cabinet tops for full support of the whole piece. The soapstone, in our experience, is much better than granite as it is a little softer and can be refinished, if needed, by simple sanding and a new coat of oil.
Frank
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Post by evangeline on Feb 24, 2017 14:06:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip, Melissaf! Right now it's between soapstone and zinc. Either way I'll be thrilled.
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Post by melissaf on Feb 25, 2017 22:55:50 GMT -5
farupp - I agree with you about soapstone being better than granite. Mine still look great after 8 years. I haven't bothered to sand out any of the minor scratches. A little oil or wax and they're not noticeable. I just consider them to be character marks. My SIL installed soapstone 2 years ago. I told her before she decided on soapstone that because it's a soft stone, it will get scratched or chipped. After just 2 years, she says she would never have soapstone again because of the scratches and chips. lol
evangaline - You can't go wrong with soapstone or zinc. The zinc should be relatively inexpensive too, especially if you build them yourself.
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Post by evangeline on Feb 26, 2017 9:53:25 GMT -5
You guys won't believe the push-back I get from suppliers around here re: soapstone. Oh, it will scratch. Blah blah. My house is cracked, pitted, kinda catty-wampus, peeling in places, shiny from rubbing in others, it's been through the wars and plenty of scabs just won't heal but that's the point of having an old house, innit? I see all these nice old places dry-walled and covered w/MDF & turned into bland retail boxes & I just can't figure out why. Remind me I said all this when I've complained for the umpteenth time about going through more patching plaster!
WIsh I could muster up the guts to make my own zinc countertops. I mentioned to PF that we might watch a video on how to do it, and almost scuttled the project. Demolition is more my speed. I'm hell with a cat's claw. ;-D
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Post by melissaf on Feb 26, 2017 11:31:12 GMT -5
The scars and scabs of old houses are what makes them beautiful. I hate seeing an old house stripped of all its character and turned into a generic big box special. The same SIL who hates her soapstone counters because they're a little scratched and dinged up, recently bought a small 1920s farm house to "restore". It was pretty much all original including lighting, wood work and bead board ceilings/walls when she bought it. Now it's been completely HGTV'd with drywall and big box store fixtures. I'm pretty sure vinyl windows, vinyl siding and "hand scraped" laminate floors will be next. I was looking for some metal edge banding a while back and I came across this site rotometals.com/zinc-sheets/. They have a complete series of videos showing how to make your own counter tops rotometals.com/zinc-sheets/zinc-sheet-install-videos-and-patina/. And a photo gallery rotometals.com/zinc-sheets/pictures-of-zinc-sheets-installed/. It looks pretty straight forward with just some basic tools.
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Post by evangeline on Feb 26, 2017 15:48:23 GMT -5
Melissaf, thanks for the links!! Thinking that with a good handyman to help, this isn't out of the range of the possible. And how cool would it be?
Sad to hear about another little old house getting the 'treatment.' Someone else will come along and rip it all out and install salvage bead board and trim. . . Sheesh.
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