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Post by divecchio on Apr 8, 2009 23:54:14 GMT -5
we have taken off the back of our 90-C and the insulation is pretty tired looking - besides, it's pretty dirty and seems to be falling off faster than we can catch it.....does anyone know if rockwool insulation can be obtained in "local"-type hardware stores or is it something that i have to contact some manufacturer about? .....my only contact with insulation is the kind i've stapled between studs...
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Post by pipercollins on Apr 9, 2009 9:29:55 GMT -5
1. You don't really want to use rock wool inside the outer panels. Rock wool goes in the spaces immediately surrounding the oven and thermowell, and inside the oven door and t-well lid.
2. We've often recommended people use regular fiberglass insulation behind side panels. (Chambers used either fiberglass or asbestos, or side panels were not insulated, depending on model and date of manufacture.)
3. I'm not a true expert on C models and I was not aware that they insulated behind the back panel. Don or someone more expert than I might be able to say something more about that in particular.
4. If you really do need rock wool, the best source we know is Sam Canup (Sam the Uncertain Stove Man). I'm not sure of his current status or contact info though. Anyone on the board had any recent contact with Sam?
5. Rock wool can sometimes be found elsewhere, but there are some vagaries about the exact properties of different kinds of rock wool. I don't know all that info off the top of my head, but some versions have different densities and some are more suitable than others for stove use. I think there was some info on that on the old old board.
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Post by divecchio on Apr 9, 2009 23:41:18 GMT -5
pipercollins - thanks for your help.......probably the insulation that's on the back is not rock wool....(i don't really know what rock wool looks like) i think that i just assumed it was because i've seen the name come up here on the website and this stuff is not anything that i'd ever seen before.......it'll be a lot easier just using regular fiberglass insulation - that's easy to find....the insulation was ONLY behind the tall back and stopped when it got to the oven - i didn't know why it was there, but then i don't know much at all about a LOT of things to do with the stove !.... i just figure that if something is attached to the stove somewhere, i better put it back!
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Post by chipperhiker on Apr 10, 2009 10:23:52 GMT -5
Divecchio, it sounds like you took apart the insulating panel behind the backsplash. This panel is indeed filled with rock wool. You might want to consider just putting it back together again. It's much easier to remove the entire panel as a single unit. Do you have it completely off the backsplash at this point? If you do, you will be able to see the light fixture wiring. If not, I'd put the whole thing back together ASAP. and then reexamine the fasteners. Only a few of them hold the insulated panel in place, and the remainder hold the panel itself together.
On more thing. If you are working with rockwool, try to at least wear a good dust mask. I wear a full-on respirator. Those little fibers are a respiratory irritant.
Sam Canup is the only rockwool source I know of, too. There has to be some other option, but I've never gone looking. Another board member (Lowracer) used the rockwool that is used for hydroponic plant growth media with good results, though I'm not sure where he got it.
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Post by pipercollins on Apr 10, 2009 11:00:34 GMT -5
That makes sense then. The high back works as a chimney for the oven vent. I'd just never had a C one apart. The older B backs weren't insulated.
Rock wool looks a lot like blown-in cellulose attic insulation. Like Chipper says, if the rock wool is in decent shape (not all greasy and matted together) just put it all back together. And yes, although rock wool is not carcinogenic, it IS an irritant.
If your rock wool is really crummy, I think it could be replaced with fiberglass there.
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Post by chipperhiker on Apr 10, 2009 11:13:58 GMT -5
Maybe, though I imagine that there was a reason that the original design used rock wool. There is a significant amount of heat vented from the oven, and these stoves were designed to need "zero-clearance" from the wall behind the stove. You could potentially create unwanted heat buildup (a fire hazard) by not sticking to the original design. The rockwool in this panel is at least an inch thick, almost as much as around the oven itself.
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Post by divecchio on Apr 10, 2009 23:54:20 GMT -5
chipperhiker: yes, we have the entire back off........my husband was able to re-wire the light, get a new light fixture and IT WORKS......as far as the rock wool is concerned - a great amount of it just fell off in little mushed pieces - very powdery.......we can't get it back on.....i will try to contact Loracer as you suggested (although i'm new to this board and i'm not sure how to contact someone!?).....pipercollins suggested possibly using fiberglass insulation - have other people done that with success?......another question - the vent on top of the backsplash - are we supposed to attach some kind of ventpipe (or whatever it would be called) to vent the air outisde? ....if we don't - will we have a very "toasty" kitchen?......does all the hot air from the oven go thru that vent?
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Post by pipercollins on Apr 11, 2009 22:44:35 GMT -5
Lowracer hasn't been active on the board for a long time, but you can try PM'ing him in case he logs on again any time soon. Considering that B model high backs weren't insulated at all, I don't think ther would be any problem using fiberglass. But the fact that I qualify as an expert should give anyone pause. I think connecting a pipe directly to the vent outlet is optional. In fact I'm quite sure most people don't, but I guess you could. All ovens vent into the kitchen one way or another, especially gas ovens. There has to be a place for pressurized air to go, especially when air flow is needed for gas combustion. (A chambers will only vent when the dampers are open...when the gas is on.) I think vents are usually designed one way or another to try to keep heat in the oven as much as possible, and vent air into the room that has cooled at least somewhat. So they tend to be baffled and channeled this way and that, and usually outlet onto the stovetop. Don't misunderstand...the air coming out the vent will still be pretty hot, but it's not a situation that is unique to Chambers. You always have the option of venting your whole stove area outdoors by means of a vent hood. Which is desirable and recommended, but not mandatory.
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Post by divecchio on Apr 11, 2009 23:22:38 GMT -5
pipercollins: THANKS for your comments.....i've been looking at photos of chambers ranges and, like you said, most people don't seem to use any type of "pipe" venting system....we have a vent hood over our existing "stove top" and this area is where we plan to put our 90-C and we could just leave the vent hood there....we have double ovens on a wall and they are vented outside (thru a vent on the roof, i think) but they are electric ovens, so maybe that's why they can vent outside....as far as my chambers is concerned, i just saw that "hole" on the top of the stove and thought that if all the heat from the oven comes out of there (and i bake a BUNCH) we'd sure be extra warm and toasty in the summer - and we don't have air conditioning up here in the mountains! thanks again for your comments......
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Post by Chuckie on Sept 16, 2009 11:24:35 GMT -5
Well, I am always calling Monkey "Swiss Miss" as cheap as she is, but I'm getting the same way since starting this restoration process!! I thought the price of rockwool from the places quoted on here sounded high, so I googled it and found a company called Rockwool International--here is their contact info: www.roxul.com/about+us/contact+usI called the 800 number on that page, and they gave me the number to Four State Supply in Lenexa, KS. I spoke to a guy named Larry that works there, and he told me it sounded like I needed their 1" stuff, and a piece large enough for my needs "would run under $5.00". I drove down there yesterday, he handed me a piece approx. 1" thick by 18" x 4' (I just needed a wee bit to replace some in the oven door). I asked him what I owed him, he said "I don't wanna write up a ticket for that small of an amount, just take the SOB and get that stove back up and running!" Seems I go from one extreme to the other on costs!!! Their product looks like the same stuff, only its firmer and in a sheet. It is rated to 2150◦ F, and since cast iron starts to melt at 2100◦ degrees, I thought it a safe bet in the oven door (I dunno, though, as hot as you guys say those ovens can get in less than five minutes! ) Anyhow, thought I'd let everybody know. If you call that 800#, there maybe someone located in your area that has it.
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Post by berlyn on Sept 17, 2009 9:05:37 GMT -5
Well, I am always calling Monkey "Swiss Miss" as cheap as she is, but I'm getting the same way since starting this restoration process!! I thought the price of rockwool from the places quoted on here sounded high, so I googled it and found a company called Rockwool International--here is their contact info: www.roxul.com/about+us/contact+usI called the 800 number on that page, and they gave me the number to Four State Supply in Lenexa, KS. I spoke to a guy named Larry that works there, and he told me it sounded like I needed their 1" stuff, and a piece large enough for my needs "would run under $5.00". I drove down there yesterday, he handed me a piece approx. 1" thick by 18" x 4' (I just needed a wee bit to replace some in the oven door). I asked him what I owed him, he said "I don't wanna write up a ticket for that small of an amount, just take the SOB and get that stove back up and running!" Seems I go from one extreme to the other on costs!!! Their product looks like the same stuff, only its firmer and in a sheet. It is rated to 2150◦ F, and since cast iron starts to melt at 2100◦ degrees, I thought it a safe bet in the oven door (I dunno, though, as hot as you guys say those ovens can get in less than five minutes! ) Anyhow, thought I'd let everybody know. If you call that 800#, there maybe someone located in your area that has it. Chuckie, Nothing wrong with being "swiss cheese", my family calls me Mz Mizer. ;D Thanks for sharing this info. Maybe FF can do a sticky with this info like we have for the reporcelain. Do you know if it is sold loose or in just batts?? I personally like the idea of the batts, seems less 'messy'. I stumbled on our rechroming much like this and got our parts done for like $25. Once you explain what you are doing many ppl are welling to help you in your quest. Again thanks for sharing!!
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Post by Chuckie on Sept 17, 2009 10:28:40 GMT -5
Someone on another website said the old time rockwool man for Chambers said you need a density of 7 - 8 lbs, and he thought the batts would only be like 5 to 6#'s density. I only need like a fist sized piece to fill up the inner-door, so don't think that's gonna change much. I intend to pull it off and 'fluff it up' a bit, as yes it IS in a batt.
I saw stuff down there on pallets that looked like the actual stuff in the oven door, so my guess is they sell both. And like I said, when you call their 800#, they'll give you a seller based on your zip code.
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Post by wannaredun on Sept 17, 2009 14:13:32 GMT -5
scorey mcawesome scoresterson. seriously. i haven't yet had to replace insulation but this is good to know.
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Post by FatFutures on Sept 18, 2009 13:50:07 GMT -5
I'm gonna sticky this thread!
I also need to remember to ask my hubby.... He told me that he could get me the stuff and not pay the "stupid" prices some folks are asking.
When I find out I'll post...
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Post by tux_sf on Sept 19, 2009 13:22:27 GMT -5
Great find Chuckie. Looks like the batting might be just the ticket & easier to work with than the loose stuff. I noticed that they specially mention oven applications here: www.roxul.com/industrial/products/roxul+rw%C2%AE+40,+60,+80 and have technical information about the ratings of the various types they sell.
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Post by samglo on Nov 13, 2009 9:18:46 GMT -5
Has anyone used ceramic fiber insulation, or is it way overkill? I would think it has a much higher R than fiberglass or rockwool. Pretty inexpensive here too: www.infraredheaters.com/insulati.htmI've used this stuff for a homemade infrared paint stripper, and it is really easy to work with and insulates really well.
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Post by jacobs on Dec 11, 2009 22:27:49 GMT -5
McMaster Carr sells rockwool. Their website is www.mcmaster.com/ . I used them for all my replacement springs and hardware. When I rebuilt my B, I purchased new batt rockwool from a local insluation company. I shredded up the new batts and packed it in place. I can't verify it's as good as the original but it works ok.
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Post by ronruble on Jun 25, 2012 10:06:37 GMT -5
Has anybody purchased rockwool insulation lately? I read that there are different "grades" of rockwool insulation and need to use what would work best in the oven and broiler walls.
Has anybody purchased rockwool from J. E. S. Enterprises (The Old Appliance Club) ?
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Post by Chuckie on Jun 25, 2012 10:47:37 GMT -5
Has anybody purchased rockwool insulation lately? I read that there are different "grades" of rockwool insulation and need to use what would work best in the oven and broiler walls. Has anybody purchased rockwool from J. E. S. Enterprises (The Old Appliance Club) ? Ron---try my links below, as I got my piece for FREE in KC. Here's a link to the old post that shows what it looks like: chamberscommune.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=maintenance&thread=1490&page=1#12667When I told the guy what I was wanting it for, he told me to "just take it and get that old stove up & running"! And here's a link to the parent company, second one was what they told me, and other folks chiming in w/MORE links: www.roxul.com/about+us/contact+uschamberscommune.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=maintenance&thread=1332&page=1#12605Call that 800#, and see if that outfit has a supplier in your area. IF memory serves me, they sold rockwool in loose form too. { UPDATE: I just got off the phone with an outfit in Indiana called Thermofiber, referral by that Roxul site after I called them. She told me they DO sell loose-fill "mineralwool" that is rated @ 1200 degrees in an 8 pound density--I don't know how you determine THAT!. They have it from "like a cotton ball on down to a powder almost"---I would suspect the cotton ball density is what one would want. They gave me the # to Bay Insulation in KC. I called them just now, and a 30# bag of the "cotton ball" type mineral wool insulation is $17.03!!!! ;D ;D ;D It is rated @ over 1200 degrees, so I guess this is the real deal! The guy I spoke w/WAS familiar w/the old rockwool, and he said "yep, this is what you're looking for, it's just an improved version of rockwool". Anyway, you can NOT buy from Thermofiber DIRECTLY, but they can tell you someone in your area that sells to the public like they did me w/Bay Insulation. Thermofiber's number is (888) 834-2371. Hope this helps ALL HERE!!! CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by roethlisberger on Jun 25, 2012 13:14:57 GMT -5
I often wonder if anyone has looked at using modern ceramic insulation blankets instead of going back with rockwool? The ceramic won't "rust" and usually is good for even higher temps. It's what is used on my boiler cabinet panels instead of the old asbestos. I guess it depends on cost and if it is at least as good as the correct spec rockwool. I wouldn't think it would be "bad" if it insulated better. It would only be "bad" if it insulated worse.
As an aside, my 1929 house is insulated with rockwool.
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Post by ronruble on Jun 25, 2012 14:19:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it better but I just got a quote from J. E. S. Enterprises for ceramic insulation: The cost for the custom ceramic insulation in half inch or one inch is: $12.00 per linear ft. (2 ft. wide) 5 foot and above. Under 5 ft. orders in custom ceramic insulation are a special cut and run $15.00 per linear ft. (2 ft. wide). www.antiquestoves.com/toac/insulation/blankie.htmAlso they sell bages of rockwool removed from Chambers stoves for $19.97 + shipping for a 2lbs bag stovelist.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=2080
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Post by roethlisberger on Jun 25, 2012 16:01:01 GMT -5
Wow, I got a huge box of ceramic insulation blankets, inch thick, enough to do my whole boiler for about $30 if I recall. I think I eBay'd it.
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Post by Chuckie on Jun 25, 2012 18:14:05 GMT -5
Methinks that is higher than a cat's @$$!!! I smell a road trip to Bay Insulation down on Front street in KC for meself tomorrow. What the hell, it's OVER a hundred degrees here, not doing anything ANYWAYS. I'll buy a 30# bag for the $17 + change, and post photos. I'll ALSO take some of the old rockwool outta my M.I.L.'s Model D that we scrapped--it looks EXACTLY like whats in the B/C's I've done--so your man @ Bay can compare it to the "new and improved" mineralwool. Stay tuned for progress reports---unless Monkey comes up w/something to detour/C-A-N-C-E-L said trip! CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by Chuckie on Jun 27, 2012 8:40:26 GMT -5
Methinks that is higher than a cat's @$$!!! I smell a road trip to Bay Insulation down on Front street in KC for meself tomorrow. What the hell, it's OVER a hundred degrees here, not doing anything ANYWAYS. I'll buy a 30# bag for the $17 + change, and post photos. I'll ALSO take some of the old rockwool outta my M.I.L.'s Model D that we scrapped--it looks EXACTLY like whats in the B/C's I've done--so your man @ Bay can compare it to the "new and improved" mineralwool. Stay tuned for progress reports---unless Monkey comes up w/something to detour/C-A-N-C-E-L said trip! CHEERS! Chuckie I DID go to Bay Insulation yesterday and bought a 40# bag for a grand total of $18.32!!! Pix & more info hopefully posted this evening... CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by Chuckie on Jun 27, 2012 20:24:39 GMT -5
OK, here's some pix and the scoop: I went down to Bay Insulation in KC Tuesday. Total cost w/tax for a 40# bag was $18.37!!!! ;D ;D ;D It is called Thermafiber FRF-502 Fiber. Their item # was ECZZ028 (don't know if that is "universal" for the product or Bay Insulation's number if you want to go check it out online). Anyhow, the gal told me it is rated for 1550 degrees, and under "Standards Compliance" on the info sheet (http://www.thermafiber.com/Portals/0/pdf/frf%20data%20sheet.pdf) it reads: " ASTM E 136 Rated Non-combustible per NFPA Standard 220 Contains no asbestos... For additional information about these or other Thermafiber products contact us at 1-888-834-2731 or visit our website www.thermafiber.com". Here's a pic of it in the bale so you can see how NICELY it compacts---much like that around the oven box/thermowell on a Chambers (keep in mind that is FORTY pounds of it): Again, it compacts NICELY, in that I got the whole 40#'s in that 32 gallon blue plastic container pictured we bought @ the $$ Store to keep it in. And here's a comparison with the rockwool (darker stuff) I took outta my M.I.L.'s Model D when it went to the scrap heap (sans any parts I could save): The thermafiber looks even DENSER IMHO! BTW, I "updated" this post @ the bottom, and that link will take you to this pic of the "High Performance Wool", which DOES appear to look EXACTLY like the old Chambers Rockwool:I am by NO MEANS an expert on this or rockwool to give any comparison. I'm just doing this by "eyeballing" and also reading the stats on the Thermafiber. I don't claim this WILL work, but don't seen any reason why it WOULDN'T. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my OWN stove if I had to do it over again--especially versus the C-O-S-T for the recycled used Chambers rockwool---quoted to ronruble @ $19.97 for TWO pounds would make my 40# bag come to $760.00!!!!!!!!! That's A LOT of jack in my world, compared to the 0.45925 I paid p.p.!!! Your man I talked to on the phone @ Bay told me he knew of rockwool insulation because his Da was in the biz years ago, and this is the "new and improved version" (cannot verify nor deny, so take it on face value, but they had nothing really to gain by selling me a $18 bag of product!) Maybe Pooka our resident researcher can delve into it and find out more stats. Again, I would've used it in a New York minute on ANY of the stoves I've redone. This is all the info I can offer on it @ the moment, as I suspect no-one has ever tried it before in a Chambers situation. Like I said, given the cost difference, I sure as the DIVIL would give this a go before $8 + per pound!! As an aside, they had a warehouse FULL of pallets of the product, so it must sell rather well industrially. IF you're interested & no one in your area sells it per that 800 number, p.m. me and we can work something out. Not much over shipping cost for fellow Chamber folks! ;D CHEERS! Chuckie { UPDATE: I went out on line today, and found this link via google:204.11.91.111/images/uploads/pdf/granulated%20products%20selection%20guide.pdf
I called Bay Insulation, and asked them about the "High Performance (HP) Wool--Packing" as I told them it looks EXACTLY like the old rockwool from Chambers!! He told me that the product I had bought is the SAME as HP Wool, only white in color. He also stated they do NOT carry the HP Wool, as it is more expensive and the stuff I bought has the same insulating qualities
I DO like the looks of the HP Wool, but the KC guy just kinda blew me off. I called a Bay Insulation in Illinois and they too said they don't carry it, but he'd call me back w/a price per bag, BUT they only sell THEIR products by the PALLET full!!! Would @ least give a price idea} UPDATE II: Illinois guy called back, $29 & some change for the HP Wool--or about $1 p.p. as it comes in a 30# bag--BUT only available by the pallet! Again, KC Bay wouldn't even GIVE me a quote!
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Post by marka on Jul 4, 2012 10:50:19 GMT -5
How many bags on a pallet?
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Post by Chuckie on Jul 4, 2012 11:20:21 GMT -5
How many bags on a pallet? Would you guess that bag to be 12" thick? The stack was taller than me (6') and it was probably three or four bags long so GUESSING 28 to 30?? This is a GUESS, and coming from ME, it is NOT an "educated" one!! Safe INDEPENDENCE DAY to all!!!
CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by ronruble on Jul 6, 2012 10:55:21 GMT -5
Tried locally in Knoxville TN but just got the same sun-a-round about HP wool. I’ll be using the Thermafiber FRF-502 Fiber or ceramic insulation rolls unless someone comes up with something better
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Post by Chuckie on Jul 6, 2012 11:42:18 GMT -5
Tried locally in Knoxville TN but just got the same sun-a-round about HP wool. I’ll be using the Thermafiber FRF-502 Fiber or ceramic insulation rolls unless someone comes up with something better Ron: let me know if you can't get the loose FRF 502 like I posted pix of. If not & you want/need some, I can send you some for postage & cost... I wonder what the "big to-do" is about the HP wool?!! Every place I've called won't even TALK to me about it!! CHEERS! Tim
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Post by jtomblin1 on Jul 23, 2012 1:55:54 GMT -5
What's wrong with the Roxul stone wool insulation that Lowes sells? It's in a batt form but no paper backing so easy to shape to your needs. To get it is only as complicated as driving to Lowes.
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