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Post by nana on Mar 9, 2016 20:08:29 GMT -5
Every year my son in law gets a nice turkey for Christmas from his work, and my daughter puts it in the freezer and decides at some random time to have what we call Second Thanksgiving. This year it will be this Saturday. Since I wasn't able to do the first turkey in Marilyn this year, I of course offered (demanded) to cook this one. But now I'm nervous because I have not been able to get a roast chicken to brown properly, let alone a turkey. It seems like once it thaws it will fit in my bigger Lisk. The length is fine, but height-wise it may be a snug fit. If I take the Lisk insert out it will have a little more room. I've read all the turkey threads I could find, but I could use some pointers and last minute reassurance on doing this properly.
The bird will be stuffed. Don't leave any detail out: temps, times, vents open or closed, times with the lid off vs on, etc. My family won't stop loving me no matter what, but a certain amount of vindication and silencing of Doubting Thomases is called for in this situation. Of course I could always just do it the way I've done countless other turkeys in regular ovens, but I want to do it the Chambers way! All advice is welcome!
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Post by Chuckie on Mar 9, 2016 22:14:18 GMT -5
Every year my son in law gets a nice turkey for Christmas from his work, and my daughter puts it in the freezer and decides at some random time to have what we call Second Thanksgiving. This year it will be this Saturday. Since I wasn't able to do the first turkey in Marilyn this year, I of course offered (demanded) to cook this one. But now I'm nervous because I have not been able to get a roast chicken to brown properly, let alone a turkey. It seems like once it thaws it will fit in my bigger Lisk. The length is fine, but height-wise it may be a snug fit. If I take the Lisk insert out it will have a little more room. I've read all the turkey threads I could find, but I could use some pointers and last minute reassurance on doing this properly. The bird will be stuffed. Don't leave any detail out: temps, times, vents open or closed, times with the lid off vs on, etc. My family won't stop loving me no matter what, but a certain amount of vindication and silencing of Doubting Thomases is called for in this situation. Of course I could always just do it the way I've done countless other turkeys in regular ovens, but I want to do it the Chambers way! All advice is welcome! Never cooked one STUFFED before, so--sorry--can't 'testify'. All I CAN tell you is if you DON'T stuff it, preheat 10 minutes @ 500 degrees, 20-25# turkey in oven in Lisk w/vent CLOSED for FORTY minutes gas ON, then four (or more) hours CWTGTO. You will have THEE most SUCCULENT bird you've ever had in all your living life!!! (just from experience in my Mam's Model C). I start ours around 9-ish as we ate 2-ish, and it was MORE than done-- BUT still 'carvable'--w/juice running from the BREAST even! Give it a go, you WON'T be sorry nor have anything to "rue"... CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by vaporvac on Mar 9, 2016 23:08:08 GMT -5
Chuckie, was it brown and cripsy? Did you take the lid off at the end and turn on heat to brown?
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Post by wizardoftrance on Mar 10, 2016 7:54:18 GMT -5
Nana,
Per the Idle hour cookbook... coat the bird with butter, oil, or fat, and leave the cover off until starting to brown (15-20 min of the 40 with the gas on) then cover and continue with gas on for the remaining time, then gas off et al.
If not browned enough, put back in oven with gas on right before ready to eat and brown til satisfied.
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Post by Chuckie on Mar 10, 2016 11:41:06 GMT -5
Chuckie, was it brown and cripsy? Did you take the lid off at the end and turn on heat to brown? Ours always "browns", but I wouldn't call it a CRISPY brown. I think I've posted a pic out here before(or on Todd's site)... And I DO coat it in herbed butter too. CHEERS! Chuckie
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Post by nana on Mar 10, 2016 18:25:03 GMT -5
I do have the Idle Hour, and I followed those instructions for the two chickens I've tried roasting. But having the cover off for the suggested amount of time did not lead to much browning, and I gave the second one a few minutes more, thinking that might help, and it would finish browning with the cover on and all the long cooking time, but no dice. I do rub them with butter, and they were nicely cooked, just not browned. I do love the crispy edges of a roast turkey, but most of the skin isn't crispy anyway, so I could even give that up. But when I lift the lid off that roaster on Saturday, if that turkey looks anything less than deeply tanned, I will have to listen to the unspoken "Oh, I thought the Chambers provides the ultimate turkey...." Well, someone might or might not say it, but I worry that they will think it. This is really my pride talking here, so perhaps I should take a step back and reflect on what's really important in life. But I spent not a small amount of time bending people's ears about the wonders of a Chambers, so now I feel like I have something to prove. Turning the gas back on at the end seems like a cop out... And the cookbook is very cagey about the vents. They do not have any definitive advice, it's all very subjective.
Also the turkey sits in the insert, apparently bathing in its juices. I usually roast mine on a rack that holds it above the fray, so to speak. Doesn't it get a liitle soggy on the bottom?
Can you tell that I am probably giving this a lot more power over me than I should? I sympathize with Pooka, I think he had a thread about cooking a turkey and his own anxiety about it. I've never been nervous about a turkey before, but now that I am, it really sucks!
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Post by vaporvac on Mar 10, 2016 18:56:56 GMT -5
OK, I know this isn't the advice you wanted, but one sure way to get it brown is to rub it prior with Kitchen bouquet Browning Sauce. This is what we used in photo shoots to ensure that it looked good. I know, it's cheating. I've yet to cook a Turkey in my Chambers so I have no other advice to give. Maybe Pooka will pipe in. I'd be experimenting on some chickens before the big day.
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Post by nana on Mar 10, 2016 20:47:59 GMT -5
OK, I know this isn't the advice you wanted, but one sure way to get it brown is to rub it prior with Kitchen bouquet Browning Sauce. Oh Vaporvac, would that I could take a short cut like that and not fear being found out!!! I looked up Pooka's thread and re-read my posts and I cringe at how confident I sounded. I also noted that I did consider my second chicken to be "perfect", so maybe I am being harder on myself in hindsight than I should. If no one comes up with any better idea, I think what I will do is a combination of conventional and Chambers style. A half hour at 475, no lid. Since it will be stuffed, I'll give it another 15-20 min lid on, vents open. Then I will close the vents, give it another minute or two to come back up to temp, and then cross my fingers and cook with the gas turned off for as many hours as appropriate for its weight, which is about 20 lbs, I'll have to weigh it once it's thawed to be sure.
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Post by vaporvac on Mar 10, 2016 23:21:41 GMT -5
When's the big day?
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Post by pooka on Mar 11, 2016 1:00:39 GMT -5
I'm really a very inexperienced cook myself. With good instructions I'm sure I could cook most anything, but I don't have any experience roasting birds. I'm more of a beef roast kind of guy. Most of my life has been spent eating take out or making Hamburger Helper with a couple of cans of vegetables added to make it a complete meal. I've worked mostly night shifts, so if I cooked at all, it was only on my days off. I've done some recipes out of the old Chambers cookbook like short ribs in sauerkraut which is a Thermowell recipe I made in the oven.
I'd say the Chambers Idle Hour cookbook is a good starting point, but those directions were for the bird of that time period which were very different from the ones we get today. Back then I'm sure you were battling to not end up with a tough & dry bird. The birds they raise today & for the last twenty or thirty years have bigger breasts & thinner skin than the ones from yesteryear. For a nicely browned bird with crispy skin, you may have to kick the oven back on at the end with the lid off to finish it off after following the cookbook method.
The turkey I cooked for last Thanksgiving wasn't picture perfect, but it was tasty. It was falling off the bone tender, but not nicely browned. I had to use a Savory roaster & left the lid on from the beginning. They have no vents, so it probably was more steamed in it's own juices than roasted. I should have left the lid off at the beginning to brown it first or at the end like I just suggested.
This might be a good topic to discuss with the Butterball hot-line next Thanksgiving on how to adjust the Chamber cookbook method for CWTGTO for optimal results. They may have some insight on this, but may be at a loss because they have no knowledge of fireless cooking. It's a thought anyway.
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Post by pooka on Mar 11, 2016 1:52:42 GMT -5
I just checked & the Butterball Hot-line is apparently available year round. You can call, chat, email or mail them. Maybe they should come up with a subset of advice for Chambers owners CWTGTO. There's got to be thousands of us throughout the country. It's worth a try to bend their ears a little & see what they have to say. We may enlighten them a bit. Butterball Hot-lineThe Butterball team is available to help you Monday — Friday, from 10:00 a.m. — 7:00 p.m. EST. Call 1-800-BUTTERBALL (800-288-8372)
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Post by nana on Mar 11, 2016 6:56:43 GMT -5
The big day is tomorrow! And you know what? I think I will call that hotline! Thanks, Pooka. They're probably bored this time of year. I've always roasted things in an open pan, and just put foil over the breast and legs to keep them from drying out. It's the whole lidded roaster thing that's got me all verklempt.
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Post by mach12 on Mar 11, 2016 11:04:08 GMT -5
OK, I know this isn't the advice you wanted, but one sure way to get it brown is to rub it prior with Kitchen bouquet Browning Sauce. I use Kitchen Bouquet for a number of things, mainly sauces and stews, and love it. I've always wondered why I don't hear about more people using it. All of the commercial kitchens I go in seem to have a quart or gallon jug of it. I've never tried it on turkey or chicken but have a chicken I was going to do in a clay pot tomorrow so that's about to change. I'll bet the gravy made from the juices will be especially good. Another great Vaporvac idea!
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Post by vaporvac on Mar 11, 2016 13:20:30 GMT -5
Your funny, mach12. If only you knew the smoke and mirrors behind that beautiful professional food photography. They barely cook the birds they photograph at times as there's no time, so it's Kitchen Bouquet to the rescue! I'd really be rubbing some on if I were worried. I don't see how it's different from herbs and spices and it doesn't mean one still can't use butter.
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Post by cinnabar on Mar 11, 2016 14:12:51 GMT -5
This is a large unstuffed chicken, herbed and buttered in the lisk, then the chambers. I roasted it uncovered at 450 - 500 until the desired brown was achieved, then low and slow til done. Note, lots of liquid, all from the bird, (Gravy)I only added a half cup water to keep the pan from getting too hot before the juices started to flow. The lid was on for the low and slow, but the vents, were open most of the time to avoid a mushy skin. No harm in putting the gas back on at the end, sometimes the weight of the bird and the temp changes mean you need a little extra. Peeking slows it up too.
I have yet to make a turkey or chicken that needed the entire time recommended for roasting. They are usually done in much less time.
Can you smell the bird? mmmmmm.
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Post by nana on Mar 11, 2016 17:21:15 GMT -5
Yes, I can just about smell that! So when you say vents were open most of the time of the low and slow, and please be specific here, when were they closed? At the beginning? At the end when you turned the gas back on? Did you make the change halfway through and turn the gas on a little to make up for openong the door to do it? I really want to know because I have the feeling this can be the ultimate turkey if I just have the mechanics down correctly.
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Post by nana on Mar 11, 2016 21:18:57 GMT -5
What is Kitchen Bouquet made of, anyway?
Dang! I just went to call the hotline now after getting all my after dinner chores done and dry-brining the bird and I see I have missed the boat! They are only open Mon-Fri, 10-7PM. I imagine in November they are a 24/7 concern. Well, what will be will be!
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Post by kellyjo40 on Mar 12, 2016 0:32:36 GMT -5
I wish I could help, but all I can say is "knock 'em dead, kid."
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Post by nana on Mar 12, 2016 21:07:06 GMT -5
Well, it was not without a few hiccups. The pecan pie in the twell came out tasty, but a little burnt on one side because I forgot until I smelled it burning that I needed to turn the burner down a wee bit, as I had learned the LAST time I did it. This time I actually wrote it down in the cookbook so I'll see it next time. The turkey, at 17 lbs, was too tall for the Lisk after all. I put it on a rack in my regular big open roasting pan, stuffed it, rubbed it with butter, and put it uncovered into the preheated oven at 500*, and let it have 30 minutes of gas. I took a peek, saw that it needed a bit more browning, so I gave it 10 more minutes, then mostly covered it with heavy duty foil to approximate a lid, and let it have 10 more, for a total of 50 minutes. The book said 45 min for a 15 lb stuffed bird, so that seemed about right for mine. Then gas off for 4 1/2 hours. It looked good, but the skin was kind of leathery, so I did end up turning on the gas for about 15 minutes, just until I heard it sizzle a bit. Then I took it out and took its picture, and put the foil back on so it could rest while I made the gravy. I had put about 3 cups of water in the bottom of the pan, which in hindsight I probably could have used less, since it didn't boil away as much as I expected, and there was less browned flavor to it, but heck, we like lots of gravy. Alas, when we went to carve it, we saw it had been seeping out pink juices... To my everlasting shame the turkey was underdone. We were able to eat the topmost and outermost parts, but the deep meat and the shoulder and thigh joints were definitely still pink, and we didn't dare eat the stuffing. Luckily I had baked an overflow pan of stuffing in the well, which came out fine, so we weren't completely bereft. But after the meal I put it in the Lisk, which having been carved up a bit it now fit, covered it and had to put it back into the oven. I gave it 30 minutes at 500 again, and then turned it off and now I'm waiting, hoping it will be done and wondering where I went wrong....Obviously it needed more heat somewhere along the line. Should I have let it go longer at the beginning? Or fired it up again halfway through for a while? I just don't know.
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Post by mach12 on Mar 13, 2016 11:57:23 GMT -5
I've been watching closely since we'll be cooking with our Chambers soon. I'm such an amateur when it comes to cooking that it's all trial and error for me.
Do you think your oven is holding temperature okay? The guy I bought my first A series from really sold me on using a digital oven thermometer so I bought one like he had that has two probes, one that monitors oven temperature and another that monitors food temperature. I'm definitely going to be using that until I figure out what I'm doing and the ins and outs of CWTGTO. I'm pretty slow so will probably be using it for a long time...
Because of my technical background my old brain always wants to eliminate technical issues first, like the oven door seal or something else causing heat loss and extending CWTGTO cooking times. Probably not real likely but it's where my brain goes.
I can't wait until we're working through this stuff too!
Here's a link to the thermometer we bought: Digital Oven Thermometer
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Post by vaporvac on Mar 13, 2016 12:57:50 GMT -5
This made me sad to read! I hope everyone understands that you're still new this this style of cooking. Did you take the internal temp before pulling it out? That's always my standard, even (or especially) for bread. I'm guessing it was because you weren't using a closed container ie. Lisk. I think anything else would lose heat too quickly. Perhaps next time you could use one of the brown-in-bag thingies to get an enclosed space or fold the tinfoil down tightly if you didn't. I know you added extra time, but is the Idle hour recipe for a stuffed bird? I have no idea, but I hope the leftovers cooked up nicely. The bird at least LOOKED good as well as the pie!
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Post by pooka on Mar 13, 2016 14:04:25 GMT -5
nana, It certainly looks good. I'm sorry it didn't quite cook through though. Lessons learned sometimes are difficult to bear. Put it behind you & soldier on. The next one will be better I'm sure.
I think the biggest factor was cooking a stuffed bird. If it hadn't been stuffed, it would have probably been OK. That's a large mass to heat all the way through. Growing up, mom always made the stuffing separately. Personally. I like the crusty edges you get that way. It's the best part. With a stuffed bird, you may need a longer initial heating, or a boost of heat in the middle to assure the heat penetrates deep enough for long enough to get the whole mass up to temperature for long enough to cook the meat properly.
mach12, your idea of a remote thermometer is a great at least to develop a guideline for something like this. In this case, there are so many variables, like was the stuffing already cooked before it's put in the bird & was it hot or cool at the start. A turkey is something we cook so rarely, it's tough to get well practiced at it.
I'd still wonder what the Butterball hot-line people might have to say about this. They may have some insight & experience we lack. I still remember the "West Wing" episode where President Bartlet calls to check on how to properly cook stuffing.
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Post by nana on Mar 14, 2016 18:19:00 GMT -5
Pooka, I never watched that show when it was on and now I regret it. That was was so funny my husband heard it playing, and thought it was Steven Colbert!
Let's see. I haven't exactly tested out the heat retaining ability of the oven. I know the one time I cooked ribs in it they came out absolutely amazing, and I followed the times for gas on/gas off(I did the as long as you like option) so I think it is OK in that respect. Also, although you could smell there was a turkey cooking, it was not a powerful, house-permeating odor, more like a suggestion, so I don't think there are any real leaks of any consequence.
I didn't take a temperature reading when I took it out, more fool me. It just looked so good, and it didn't occur to me until it was too late and we saw the pinkness, then I did and the stuffing was at 134*, so that's why we were afraid to eat it.
However, the additional time in the actual Lisk was just the ticket, and the rest of it was done the way I wish it would have been done BEFORE dinner...tender, still juicy, and done to a fare-thee-well. Having had time to ruminate on this, I have come up with a few thoughts, and hopefully it will be helpful to future cooks as well:
I think turkeys nowadays have more breast meat than old fashioned ones, so it's just that much more thickness to get through.
Being two pounds heavier than the cook book recipe is written for, and also stuffed, probably required more extra time than I gave it. Next time I will turn the oven on for a half hour or so midway through the CWTGTO time to make sure it gets a boost of heat to keep it going. 1 1/2 hours of gas for a big turkey is still better than 4-5 hours, right? After all, I know my oven runs 150* or so with just the pilot, but that will not bring the stuffing up to 165* (thank you, president Bartlett!) even if I left it there forever.
The rack I roasted it in holds the turkey in a pretty tight wedge. I noticed when I put it in the Lisk that the wings and legs fell away from the sides a little, which probably allowed the heat to get to those deep joints a little easier. If I don't find a monster size 5 Lisk by next Thanksgiving, then I will invest in a shallower rack to allow for a little more spreading.
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Post by pooka on Mar 15, 2016 18:20:44 GMT -5
"The West Wing" was a great show. It had great writing, a talented cast & thought provoking subject matter. It was in contrast to so much of TV that was sinking into the stinking pit of "Reality TV". It's a good example of what really good TV can be. The Butterball interlude was one of the many little tidbits that added to the depth of the show. Since I've almost always worked at night, I didn't see it from the beginning, but started watching on my day off when they would show a couple of reruns of it, then the new episode. The last season or so wasn't quite up to the mark, but it was still better than anything else at the time.
nana, I think an meat thermometer is going to be your best friend until you get accustom to what the oven will do. It sounds like you analyzed your results this time for better results the next time. Even a failed experiment is not a waste of time. It teaches you at least one way Not to do it. It's the Socratic method. Start by knowing nothing, take your best shot, analyze the result & improve with each try. Our whole way of life, scientific & otherwise are based on this.
Fireless cooking is a whole different animal than ordinary cooking. In normal cooking, you take a food item, throw heat energy at it until it's done. In fireless cooking, heat energy is treated like another ingredient to the recipe. You add just enough to get the job done & no more. A much more scientific & efficient way to do it. Next time you might even put a couple of bricks in the oven to add thermal mass & reduce the amount of dead air space.
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Post by nana on Mar 15, 2016 19:07:56 GMT -5
You made me think of that Thomas A. Edison quote, "I haven't failed. I just found 10,000 ways that don't work." I went to look it up to get the right wording and found this site and read through some of his longer quotes. He was a visionary, and pretty interesting to read, too. www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/3091287.Thomas_A_EdisonIt is a new way of thinking about cooking. It only stands to reason that there would be a few bumps in the road!
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Post by cinnabar on Mar 18, 2016 15:08:39 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, out of town. I think after covering the bird I roasted at 325 for an hour and then CWTGTO. Sounds like you needed more heat after the browning segment to get the meat done. My DH loves stuffing in the bird, but to cook evenly, I prefer to do the bird unstuffed and use the trusty thermometer.
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Post by nana on Mar 19, 2016 9:21:38 GMT -5
More heat definitely. Whether a longer time before turning off the gas, or a little extra time halfway through just to bring it back up. It probably wouldn't really matter which one you do, just have to do it. DH... darling husband? Designated hitter?
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Post by cinnabar on Mar 19, 2016 15:20:52 GMT -5
DH is darling husband, 33 years today. We are having chicken, mushrooms, and spuds in the chambers. Prolly some vino to go along to wash it down.
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Post by pooka on Mar 20, 2016 0:20:40 GMT -5
Happy anniversary cinnabar. 33 years is a real milestone in this day & age. DH must be a keeper if you've put up with him for this long.
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Post by nana on Mar 22, 2016 16:17:14 GMT -5
Congratulations Cinnabar! You've got me beat by about 2 1/2 months. Enjoy your day!
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